High Voltage Battery Recall EXPANDED - ARB6 & ARB7

[Jonathan S.]

What was the nature of the lawsuit and what are you asking for?

As his retained expert witness on financial economic factors, I have calculated his damages at approximately the GDP of modestly sized developing nations.

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[Gino]

Duly noted. (<- maybe sarcasm )


It has been a long-standing problem, and this is what I was alluding to: that with this recall, they finally cracked the nut of recognizing problems before they become fatal. I am convinced they have spent a lot of time trying to understand both why the failures occur (as in material defects), and how to prevent them - at manufacturing, during assembly or later, while in use. (So, again, IMO they're not detecting shorts with this update - that's still too late; my take is that they observe module behavior wrt charging/discharging, and try to predict impending failures.)

Coming out publicly with this recall is a bit curious: perhaps they are legally obligated to advertise the capability of diagnosing failures, if they have (acquired) it; or perhaps they are confident in their diagnosis, and are leveraging NHTSA to minimize the potential failures (by scaring owners into not charging to full SoC). Either way, from the moment they have a high confidence solution, until that solution is made compliant/localized/scrutinized for the global markets, some considerable amount of time will pass.

Unfortunately with their first EV Porsche has gotten into trouble with their choice of battery chemistry tied to their choice of BMS and what is considered by Porsche as normal operation & operator behavior.
They seem to be vacillating on all these fronts to try to reduce the cost to address the core problems in their design implementation. They could replace every single one of the potentially affected HV battery modules, every single BMS so they don’t have to try to change operator behavior (ie. charge only to 80%, don’t charge at 120V for more than 12 hours and ideally only in emergencies to get enough charge to get to a supercharger) The last one is a real stretch since there are plenty of Taycan owners which can only use 120V to charge and they were never told you couldn’t or shouldn’t charge daily at 120V.
Porsche is going to kick this can down the road until as many of these offending vehicles are taken out of circulation through Porsche trade-ins & accidents until they are out of battery warranty when all bets are off for owners.
On one hand they have the risk of fires and on the other hand they have the incredibly high cost of dealing with these battery/BMS issues purely based on the need to do so without harming the brand.
The jury is still out on the damage being done to the brand when it comes to EVs.
Porsche, Audi, VW is not backing away from EVs at this point so I’m just hoping they fully understand the scope of their EV problems which are already out there and will all be addressed eventually wether it is with planned repairs, trade-ins or even a small percentage of vehicles that catch fire due to the choices they made up until 2022 and maybe even until 2023.
I don’t see or hear about any 2024 HV battery/BMS/on board charger issues but it still concerns me they don’t differentiate between my 2021 & even a 2025 where they maintain the position you should not charge above 80%. Does the 2025 Taycan say on its manual that the 120V charger should only be used in emergencies and never for more than 12 hours? I would doubt Porsche would say that in their manual and risk losing sales to anyone with no access to 220/240v at home.
I want Porsche to succeed but it’s easy for me to take a flyer on the Taycan purely for it’s beauty and performance when I have 4 other cars which all get used as much or more than my one EV. For a household where each person has one car & that’s it I would be much more upset about the flailing Taycan product as poorly executed rollout of their first EV. I waited a few years before I bought my 2021 which was delivered in January 2022 and I got it CPO’d after 2 years & 30K miles with no major issues I’m aware of.
I was hoping the car would be stable by now with all the bugs identified & resolved but apparently the HV Battery/BMS system is one very complicated large, expensive bug. I have a very low bar for Porsche with my Taycan. Let me keep my beautiful girl for 20+ years without her going into a spontaneous fiery rage, burning down my house. In other words just don’t let my supermodel Taycan turn into a vengeful ex wife hell bent on burning my house down with me in it! I’m fortunate I have a beautiful, loving, supportive wife but my Taycan girlfriend, which by the way is also my wife’s Taycan boyfriend could decide she/he is going to take us both out in a white hot blaze.
…I guess all that said, I’m hopeful Porsche knows what they’re doing?

 

[FlyingPoint]

…I guess all that said, I’m hopeful Porsche knows what they’re doing?

I am not as hopeful, unfortunately.

My guess is many (not all) Taycan owners are maybe first time PCar owners or not lifelong PCar owners. I have seen an overall deterioration of the Pcar ownership value proposition. I have a GT3 that was brought into the workshop on 9/6/24 to replace all fuel injectors at PAG's expense. It is still there. I am very close the service manager and he is a valuable resource. I won't make waves, but 5 years ago a GT3 owner would never have been treated this way. They cannot obtain parts timely and skilled tech's are in very short supply. Personally, I think being a publicly traded company has forced management to serve a different master (colloquially use intended only)- the shareholder, not the customer.
IMHO, as owner's we are in big trouble. PAG was in big trouble financially in the early 1990's. They climbed out of that ditch because they able to introduce changes to the lineup and production processes. They were able accomplish the turn around because they had a loyal following and pristine motorsport heritage. They are eroding the first and are systematically destroying the second.

Just my 2c or pence for our UK friends.

 

[Gino]

I am not as hopeful, unfortunately.

My guess is many (not all) Taycan owners are maybe first time PCar owners or not lifelong PCar owners. I have seen an overall deterioration of the Pcar ownership value proposition. I have a GT3 that was brought into the workshop on 9/6/24 to replace all fuel injectors at PAG's expense. It is still there. I am very close the service manager and he is a valuable resource. I won't make waves, but 5 years ago a GT3 owner would never have been treated this way. They cannot obtain parts timely and skilled tech's are in very short supply. Personally, I think being a publicly traded company has forced management to serve a different master (colloquially use intended only)- the shareholder, not the customer.
IMHO, as owner's we are in big trouble. PAG was in big trouble financially in the early 1990's. They climbed out of that ditch because they able to introduce changes to the lineup and production processes. They were able accomplish the turn around because they had a loyal following and pristine motorsport heritage. They are eroding the first and are systematically destroying the second.

Just my 2c or pence for our UK friends.

You are spot on! I just hope Porsche doesn’t squander their reputation to become a brand that gets taken over by Ford, GM or Chrysler like they’ve done with other brands like Ford has done with Jaguar and Chrysler did with Mercedes but then Mercedes got out in time to not become another garbage platform with zero standards sold only to the masses where their number one selling vehicle is a truck that drives worse than a truck should.
Porsche’s back is against the wall. They have so much more to lose than VW or Audi. I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[gatorfast]

For those with the ARB6 recall - do you feel comfortable charging your car in your garage before the recall is performed? Looks like the max 80% charge is the only recommendation but silent on whether it is safe to charge in a home garage.

 

[Jonathan S.]

For those with the ARB6 recall - do you feel comfortable charging your car in your garage before the recall is performed? Looks like the max 80% charge is the only recommendation but silent on whether it is safe to charge in a home garage.

Define "safe"?
Porsche believes that the Taycan has some higher than average (whatever the average might be across all EV models) chance of catching fire while charging.
If you're under ARB6, then Porsche has no idea what's going with your battery.
(If ARB7, then apparently Porsche is monitoring it, and absence of evidence is apparently evidence of absence, i.e., if Porsche hasn't alerted us to any problems, then we don't have any problems - I think?)
There's some chance -- however small -- of burning down your house whenever you charge any EV on any EVSE in an attached garage.
Whether the entirely unknown status of a particular Taycan under ARB6 merits additional cautions ...

 

[SergeyIndy]

For those with the ARB6 recall - do you feel comfortable charging your car in your garage before the recall is performed? Looks like the max 80% charge is the only recommendation but silent on whether it is safe to charge in a home garage.

Not such guidance for US under ARB6. All it says is to get the dealer to run a VAL and then if any bad cells detected then they will be replaced but I have no idea of the logistics. Otherwise, if VAL is good, as it is the case for @PorscheNewb who just had that performed at our local dealer with no bad cells found, then the guidance is the same as it is for ARB7, which is wait for the BMCe software release.

 

[Gino]

Define "safe"?
Porsche believes that the Taycan has some higher than average (whatever the average might be across all EV models) chance of catching fire while charging.
If you're under ARB6, then Porsche has no idea what's going with your battery.
(If ARB7, then apparently Porsche is monitoring it, and absence of evidence is apparently evidence of absence, i.e., if Porsche hasn't alerted us to any problems, then we don't have any problems - I think?)
There's some chance -- however small -- of burning down your house whenever you charge any EV on any EVSE in an attached garage.
Whether the entirely unknown status of a particular Taycan under ARB6 merits additional cautions ...

I don’t have a choice at this point but to park my Taycan in my detached garage which also limits my risk to only the garage, my other vehicle and a considerable amount of valuables but at least my main home will not burn down. I also wonder if the risk of fire is less likely charging with 120V@10A for 8-12 hours every few days will constitute a lower risk than charging above 80% using 240v@40A.
I would expect the higher voltage & charging rate would be higher risk but the longer charge times which I limit to never exceed 12 hours to 85% max could damage the charger or the on board charging system if Porsche has found flaws in their design leading to their premature failure but not failure of the battery modules themselves.
I monitor the temperature of the charging cable, the vehicle charging port and the Porsche wall charger main unit for excessive heating but so far they aren’t getting even close to hot. Simply a bit warm to the touch since 10A at 120V or 240V for less than 12 hours is very light duty for the charger electronics or at least it should be.
I guess I will find out if my beliefs are correct if my garage doesn’t burn down in the next four years until the battery warranty expires.
After that I wonder if the fears of battery fires will all be gone or if I’ll be on the hook alone after warranty of the battery catches fire. I hope this isn’t the case. Porsche would have to advise owners to replace their batteries after the warranty expires or trade-in the vehicle to avoid potential battery fires.
There is no data to suggest this but I think the root cause of these fires will be due to a failure in the battery management systems which should improve over time long before my warranty has expired.

 

[Arashi]

Noob question, I just purchased a 23 4s from out of state dealer and carfax says the car is still under ARB6, shall I talk to local dealer to get it checked?

 

[SergeyIndy]

Noob question, I just purchased a 23 4s from out of state dealer and carfax says the car is still under ARB6, shall I talk to local dealer to get it checked?

Yes. I would get it checked so they can run a test to determine battery cell health.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Noob question, I just purchased a 23 4s from out of state dealer and carfax says the car is still under ARB6, shall I talk to local dealer to get it checked?

But once you take delivery, set up your account, and enable data sharing ... that should switch the status over to ARB7, correct? (And then you won't have to do anything.)

 

[Arashi]

But once you take delivery, set up your account, and enable data sharing ... that should switch the status over to ARB7, correct? (And then you won't have to do anything.)

No it’s been 1 week since delivery and it’s still ARB6. That dealer was clueless so I had to ask in this forum. Anyway I’ll get a local dealer to take a look.

 

[SergeyIndy]

But once you take delivery, set up your account, and enable data sharing ... that should switch the status over to ARB7, correct? (And then you won't have to do anything.)

Nope. This does not work that way. I was just at the dealer and @PorscheNewb had ARB6 on a MY22 GTS and the dealer said that there is no way of switching them to an ARB7.

 

[snstevens]

For those with the ARB6 recall - do you feel comfortable charging your car in your garage before the recall is performed? Looks like the max 80% charge is the only recommendation but silent on whether it is safe to charge in a home garage.

I think some of the folks on this forum are going a bit overboard with their concerns.

As I posted above (and then got a response with actual data from @FlyingPoint ) there are only a couple of reports over 5 years of Taycan's burning. One was in a garage (didn't specify charging or not, or source of fire); another was charging; and the last one had a 12V battery fire. There is just no evidence that anyone is in imminent danger of a fire.

I'd like to repeat what I told @Gino above, in order to add perspective.

This is a safety precaution recall, and we can all deal with it without worry that our houses will burn down.​

​

Here is a summary of how I'm responding to this recall --​

• Charging On the Road or within 50 miles of Home - Charge to whatever SOC makes sense to me with no upper limit. Sometimes this is 90%, sometimes 95%. Generally the charge is going to be less by the time I reach home so when I park in the garage I expect it to be in the 80% ± 5% range.
• Charging at Home - I currently limit to 80%, and since there is a dearth of news items of fires occurring in Taycans (other than the 3 mentioned above), I sleep well and don't worry about the house burning down.

​

To be honest, this reminds of of the time my Lexus GX 350 had a fuel pump recall, except that there was nothing I could do (like charge to a lower SOC) to reduce risk. I wish there had been, as it took several months for the replacement fuel pumps to become available, and in the meantime I drove the Lexus and I crossed my fingers.​

I appreciate that you might see things differently, but I hope my perspective helps.

 

[Fish Fingers]

As his retained expert witness on financial economic factors, I have calculated his damages at approximately the GDP of modestly sized developing nations.

Just file damages for the amount of time it's been in the dealers.

We now have OPC in UK charging £354 ph labour.

They obviously think that is a reasonable hourly rate.....so just multiply that over the 8 months.

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