Parts theft on EVs

[Gino]

I am in the semiconductor industry and there is a big push to make every chip manufactured with it's own unique code to be authenticated to the system it's in to insure the configuration is correct and nothing has been swapped out which could corrupt the overall system.
This is now being extended in Europe to an EV battery passport system which will allow every battery cell to be tracked from when it's manufactured to when it is taken out of service.
I recently came across a loss prevention manager at AVIS in Orange County, CA who told me about rampant theft from rental cars. Everything from wheels/tires to engines get swapped out and AVIS usually doesn't find out until they realize there is a problem with the part (like an engine) which requires service and they realize too late after multiple rentals from when it was taken that it is not the same engine that was in the vehicle when it was delivered to them.
He said thieves know what parts are the same on multiple years so they can simply rent the car with the correct part and then swap their high mileage part which is failing with a low mileage part on the newer model rental.
They can't go after the customer because they have no way of pinpointing when the part was taken during which rental.
He told me their highest losses were on their fleet of Teslas. I asked what do they steal. He said "everything" PC boards, sensors, modules, wheels, tires, etc. Tesla saves a lot of money using many of the same parts for all model years so a 5 year old Tesla has basically many of the same parts as the current model. When a thief steals a part off a Tesla at AVIS and they can't determine which renter stole the part then AVIS has to repair/replace the part at their cost.
I wonder if anyone knows if Porsche has serial numbers on every battery cell pack in every module that is tied to the VIN so they would know if someone had swapped out a cell pack or an entire module.
I don't know of anyone that rents Taycan's but VW/Audi is one of the worlds largest auto makers which also sells for affordable EVs to the masses. I'd bet they use the same LB battery cell packs and possibly even some of the same battery modules and charging electronics which would be prime targets for midnight auto shops.
I'm currently working with the DOC & NIST to develop standards to prevent these thefts and the first step is to give and track every part's identity so it must be authenticated to work in the intended platform such as a car, plane, server, PC, etc.
I hoping Porsche already tracks every one of their batteries but not sure if a DIY'r could swap a battery themselves and the vehicle would still operate as normal. Hopefully if the vehicle were to be inspected by Porsche during service they would see the battery module was changed.
Sorry for the long post... appreciate any thoughts...

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[JimBob]

Wow. The inventiveness of the criminal mind is amazing!

 

[Gino]

Wow. The inventiveness of the criminal mind is amazing!

I was blown away when the loss prevention manager at AVIS said even he got taken when he had a brand new Dodge Ram pickup with beautiful rims on it but he didn't notice until after he returned it that someone at his hotel must have swapped out the wheels/tires because his service manager told him the wheels were from a 2020 Dodge Ram not 2023. His service manager noticed the tire treads had at least 40k-50K miles on them but he had no idea.
It's like in Shawshank Redemption when Andy wears the warden's shoes he polished when he went bake to his cell before he escaped. No one looks at your shoes...
Who pays attention to the wheels on your rental car?
Now I always check the treads on the tires before I leave the lot to make sure the tires haven't been swapped. I had that happen to me on a car with 11K miles on it but the tires were all bald.

 

[MrJones02]

I know some expensive parts (modules/instrument clusters/media units etc) on vw/audi have "component protection" since at least 15 years (in the early days it was still easy to bypass), where a check with their servers is needed to see if it isnt reported stolen and to register it to your car. Since porsche is part of the vw group, I'm sure they do the same.

Once had a taillight warranty declined by Tesla on a Tesla we bought used (but was still under factory warranty) ... they were able to tell it was not the one that originally came with the car. Not sure if they track every single part by serial number, or it was just the revision number of the taillight that didnt match with the productiondate of the car.

 

[Gino]

I know some expensive parts (modules/instrument clusters/media units etc) on vw/audi have "component protection" since at least 15 years (in the early days it was still easy to bypass), where a check with their servers is needed to see if it isnt reported stolen and to register it to your car. Since porsche is part of the vw group, I'm sure they do the same.

Once had a taillight warranty declined by Tesla on a Tesla we bought used (but was still under factory warranty) ... they were able to tell it was not the one that originally came with the car. Not sure if they track every single part by serial number, or it was just the revision number of the taillight that didnt match with the productiondate of the car.

I figured the big manufacturers are doing this for some of the key components to protect themselves on vehicles under warranty.
This was a big problem in semiconductor production fabs in the 1980s to 2000 when customers would swap parts from systems still under warranty and older systems out of warranty. We started to log every electronics rack, all PC boards & every system module so we would know if the customer swapped parts before calling us to repair their system under warranty. Many of these parts/modules were well over $100K, sometimes as much as $700K.
Whenever there are expensive parts on anything there are going to be people trying to figure out a way to avoid paying for OEM parts. As prices increase for everything so does the incentive to steal. Rental cars are perfect targets.
I was at a hotel in a Boston suburb and notice two new Mazda sport coupes up on blocks when I was checking in. I asked the front desk manager what happened and he said thieves steal wheels off rental cars almost every week in their parking lot because most of the rental car companies don't put wheel locks on their cars so it's easy money for the thieves to pull up at night and remove all but one lug nut on every wheel and just loosen the last one so that they can have 4 guys lift the car onto blocks and each guy removes the last nut and each take a wheel and take off in a truck with a stolen plate. Even caught on camera they get away with it.
These criminals are smart and they assume they're in an organized crime group/gang. They rotate around from town to town targeting lots where there are no security guards since they take less than 5 minutes to steel the wheels.
I just realized I should double check I have wheel locks on my Taycan...

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

There are a couple of different problems here:
- preventing part theft
- detecting loss of integrity of a vehicle's componentry
- preventing illicit part trade

As you may expect, they are not to be solved by the same entity - and quite possibly there may not even be widespread agreement that they are all, indeed, "problems".

Prevention seems to be (to partially blame the victim) the rental company's problem; they are the ones loaning their property to random people, and perhaps too naively ran towards EVs. (Kinda hard to swap an IC engine, and if someone steals a cigarette lighter it's pretty obvious.) I'm surprised that they are not employing Tesla's interior monitoring feature (or sentry mode) to act at least as a deterrent against, you know, someone using a toolset inside a rental or driving it onto a lift.

Detection should be, in principle, possible - it has been for traditional manufacturers since the 50s. In the digital age, anything with power/a chip in in should be (again, in principle) possible to be represented/captured in the cryptographic chain of the vehicle. (It may be even possible to detect what changed, though I imagine one would limit that capability to the consequential modules; who gives a crap about replaced side markers..) Setting aside the complexities of embedding keys into everything, or setting up the audit trail (from production through usage), the question is then "so what?" There are obviously legitimate cases for changes (from the manufacturer's perspective), whereas the rental company's pov would be: "if it changed, you're buying it". I suspect that won't be an easily achievable goal.

The illicit trade is by far the gnarliest of all, and in a sense is captive towards the law-abiding citizen (hence the Moss-Magnuson act). Not only that, but it's a problem for the law (makers and enforcers), and so it'll need to become a serious problem before it will get any attention. Like, say, "app store serious" as opposed to merely "gun serious".* And then comes the technical complexity of building a web of trust of manufacturers (of cars and parts), consumers and repairers, that is practical enough for the physical world, usage-safe and fair. (You know, aspects that the Internet itself could not, and has not attempted to solve.)

*I tend to deadpan/make sarcastic statements without declaring them as such, as it tends to spoil the joke. But let me be very clear this one was meant as sardonic as could possibly be.

 

[Gino]

There are a couple of different problems here:
- preventing part theft
- detecting loss of integrity of a vehicle's componentry
- preventing illicit part trade

As you may expect, they are not to be solved by the same entity - and quite possibly there may not even be widespread agreement that they are all, indeed, "problems".

Prevention seems to be (to partially blame the victim) the rental company's problem; they are the ones loaning their property to random people, and perhaps too naively ran towards EVs. (Kinda hard to swap an IC engine, and if someone steals a cigarette lighter it's pretty obvious.) I'm surprised that they are not employing Tesla's interior monitoring feature (or sentry mode) to act at least as a deterrent against, you know, someone using a toolset inside a rental or driving it onto a lift.

Detection should be, in principle, possible - it has been for traditional manufacturers since the 50s. In the digital age, anything with power/a chip in in should be (again, in principle) possible to be represented/captured in the cryptographic chain of the vehicle. (It may be even possible to detect what changed, though I imagine one would limit that capability to the consequential modules; who gives a crap about replaced side markers..) Setting aside the complexities of embedding keys into everything, or setting up the audit trail (from production through usage), the question is then "so what?" There are obviously legitimate cases for changes (from the manufacturer's perspective), whereas the rental company's pov would be: "if it changed, you're buying it". I suspect that won't be an easily achievable goal.

The illicit trade is by far the gnarliest of all, and in a sense is captive towards the law-abiding citizen (hence the Moss-Magnuson act). Not only that, but it's a problem for the law (makers and enforcers), and so it'll need to become a serious problem before it will get any attention. Like, say, "app store serious" as opposed to merely "gun serious".* And then comes the technical complexity of building a web of trust of manufacturers (of cars and parts), consumers and repairers, that is practical enough for the physical world, usage-safe and fair. (You know, aspects that the Internet itself could not, and has not attempted to solve.)

*I tend to deadpan/make sarcastic statements without declaring them as such, as it tends to spoil the joke. But let me be very clear this one was meant as sardonic as could possibly be.

You are correct this is not a simple problem to solve. The car rental companies don't do any real checks on their cars before they rent it out and when it is returned do they are easy targets. Rental car companies don't check anything beyond fuel level or charge level on an EV so everything else is fair game.
I rent cars about 3 to 4 times a week on average mostly in the US so I catch vehicles every once in a while in larger cities where the tires have been swapped on a vehicle with less than 10K miles on it. I immediately report it to the car rental company before I accept the car. They acknowledge the problem but they accept the loss because they can't check every vehicle before and after every rental in a cost effective way.
This is where I am trying to help the DOC create standards to automate configuration monitoring for at least the most critical components on each vehicle so the car rental companies can protect their investment. Tesla is not as interested to solve the problem since they just end up selling more parts to the car rental companies at full price. They recognize the problem but also don't want to spend extra money on their cars to prevent theft.
AVIS may threaten to stop purchasing Tesla cars if Tesla will not work with them to solve this problem.
It is very interesting to see how manufacturers are protecting the integrity of their products.

 

[Boss Hogg]

Interesting thread, I thought rental companies were moving away from EVs for a range of reasons with high repair cots being a big one. Hertz announced the sale of much of its Tesla fleet earlier this year.

Fake/substandard parts an even bigger problem.

 

[Gino]

Interesting thread, I thought rental companies were moving away from EVs for a range of reasons with high repair cots being a big one. Hertz announced the sale of much of its Tesla fleet earlier this year.

Fake/substandard parts an even bigger problem.

I wouldn't be surprised if parts theft wasn't one of the reasons but also people who've never driven an EV get into more accidents because the sudden acceleration catches them by surprise leading to more collisions.
I know I love the acceleration of an EV of any kind but it did take me a little by surprise the first time I drove one. I could easily see older drivers or younger drivers getting quickly out of control. I'm almost always given an EV by AVIS since I'm in their Presidents club and they always confirm that I will be returning the car to their location.
I guess I'm a well known customer in their system so they trust I will not jeopardize their vehicles.

 

[Redhot2474]

I figured the big manufacturers are doing this for some of the key components to protect themselves on vehicles under warranty.
This was a big problem in semiconductor production fabs in the 1980s to 2000 when customers would swap parts from systems still under warranty and older systems out of warranty. We started to log every electronics rack, all PC boards & every system module so we would know if the customer swapped parts before calling us to repair their system under warranty. Many of these parts/modules were well over $100K, sometimes as much as $700K.
Whenever there are expensive parts on anything there are going to be people trying to figure out a way to avoid paying for OEM parts. As prices increase for everything so does the incentive to steal. Rental cars are perfect targets.
I was at a hotel in a Boston suburb and notice two new Mazda sport coupes up on blocks when I was checking in. I asked the front desk manager what happened and he said thieves steal wheels off rental cars almost every week in their parking lot because most of the rental car companies don't put wheel locks on their cars so it's easy money for the thieves to pull up at night and remove all but one lug nut on every wheel and just loosen the last one so that they can have 4 guys lift the car onto blocks and each guy removes the last nut and each take a wheel and take off in a truck with a stolen plate. Even caught on camera they get away with it.
These criminals are smart and they assume they're in an organized crime group/gang. They rotate around from town to town targeting lots where there are no security guards since they take less than 5 minutes to steel the wheels.
I just realized I should double check I have wheel locks on my Taycan...

Absolutely should check, I had wheels taken off my Tesla and my wife her new Range Rover almost exactly a year apart

 

[Gino]

I am in the semiconductor industry and there is a big push to make every chip manufactured with it's own unique code to be authenticated to the system it's in to insure the configuration is correct and nothing has been swapped out which could corrupt the overall system.
This is now being extended in Europe to an EV battery passport system which will allow every battery cell to be tracked from when it's manufactured to when it is taken out of service.
I recently came across a loss prevention manager at AVIS in Orange County, CA who told me about rampant theft from rental cars. Everything from wheels/tires to engines get swapped out and AVIS usually doesn't find out until they realize there is a problem with the part (like an engine) which requires service and they realize too late after multiple rentals from when it was taken that it is not the same engine that was in the vehicle when it was delivered to them.
He said thieves know what parts are the same on multiple years so they can simply rent the car with the correct part and then swap their high mileage part which is failing with a low mileage part on the newer model rental.
They can't go after the customer because they have no way of pinpointing when the part was taken during which rental.
He told me their highest losses were on their fleet of Teslas. I asked what do they steal. He said "everything" PC boards, sensors, modules, wheels, tires, etc. Tesla saves a lot of money using many of the same parts for all model years so a 5 year old Tesla has basically many of the same parts as the current model. When a thief steals a part off a Tesla at AVIS and they can't determine which renter stole the part then AVIS has to repair/replace the part at their cost.
I wonder if anyone knows if Porsche has serial numbers on every battery cell pack in every module that is tied to the VIN so they would know if someone had swapped out a cell pack or an entire module.
I don't know of anyone that rents Taycan's but VW/Audi is one of the worlds largest auto makers which also sells for affordable EVs to the masses. I'd bet they use the same LB battery cell packs and possibly even some of the same battery modules and charging electronics which would be prime targets for midnight auto shops.
I'm currently working with the DOC & NIST to develop standards to prevent these thefts and the first step is to give and track every part's identity so it must be authenticated to work in the intended platform such as a car, plane, server, PC, etc.
I hoping Porsche already tracks every one of their batteries but not sure if a DIY'r could swap a battery themselves and the vehicle would still operate as normal. Hopefully if the vehicle were to be inspected by Porsche during service they would see the battery module was changed.
Sorry for the long post... appreciate any thoughts...

Absolutely should check, I had wheels taken off my Tesla and my wife her new Range Rover almost exactly a year apart

I once had my wheels stolen off my brand new Nissan 300ZX turbo which I installed an alarm system with a pager. My pager went off and by the time I ran down 5 flights of stairs and out to the parking lot my car was on blocks and the van was driving away with my wheels & no license plate. They only needed 5 minutes to take all four wheels!

 

[Redhot2474]

I once had my wheels stolen off my brand new Nissan 300ZX turbo which I installed an alarm system with a pager. My pager went off and by the time I ran down 5 flights of stairs and out to the parking lot my car was on blocks and the van was driving away with my wheels & no license plate. They only needed 5 minutes to take all four wheels!

Dang. I had a 300zx TT in silver , car was a $ pit - of course I had tons of HP running through it too, but lovely car indeed ?

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