Hybrid Alternative to all electric

[TDinDC]

I'm weighing in late here, but many of the cars that compete with the Taycan, whether EV or ICE, are essentially built to be disposable.

Between the fast pace of innovation and the super high cost of some of the components of the vehicles (whether a battery for an EV or a catalytic converter for an ICE) and labor costs, it is often cheaper just to get a new car than to keep a 10 year old plus car in service (and yes, I know as I have an 18 year old ICE). I mean, would any of us here be willing to own any of these cars beyond the warranty period???? It seems like the only exceptions to this rule for mass produced vehicles are really Porsche (although I'm not sure that is even true anymore) and Toyota/Lexus.

I don't like Hybrids (and I'm not counting vehicles that use EV strictly as a performance boost) very much. They seem like the worst of both worlds to me. You still have to maintain both systems, and if you don't use the gas then that goes bad when you do end up using it, and it is heavier, and many of today's hybrids seem like they are not all that more efficient than their pure ICE siblings.

Yes, I have EV, hybrid, and ICE vehicles, but if forced to choose just one, I would likely go EV or ICE . . . not hybrid.

I wish there were a greater focus on weight and efficiency for all vehicles . . . the benefit of lighter vehicles is substantial in terms of performance and efficiency.

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[snstevens]

Here:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/baseline-for-hv-battery-soh-performance.12815/post-279964​

$60k comes from $44,400 + $13,065 core charge if the old battery is not serviceable, plus labor. So if you drive over a road hazard that dents the case, you or your insurance company are out $57,465 plus labor. At the rate Taycans depreciate (sorry to bring up that topic!), the insurance company may total the car in that scenario.

Thanks for that info. It's interesting that the "warranty" price is so high when the dealer I referenced in my post was quoting a much lower price.

I've no clue why there is a difference, but perhaps Porsche allows for the warranty charge to be higher?

 

[f1eng]

I don't like Hybrids (and I'm not counting vehicles that use EV strictly as a performance boost) very much. They seem like the worst of both worlds to me. You still have to maintain both systems, and if you don't use the gas then that goes bad when you do end up using it, and it is heavier, and many of today's hybrids seem like they are not all that more efficient than their pure ICE siblings.

I do like hybrids and have had at leat one since 2005, but I completely agree that very few are well integrated, only Toyota (+Lexus of course) and anybody licensing their technology are doing it in a technically elegant way - by that I mean light and simple.

Our Prius has averaged 157.5 mpg over the last 6 years FWIW.

All the others I have seen just add an electric motor and battery connected somewhere in the drive train to and existing IC engine/gearbox/clutch leaving a heavy, complex bodge. IMHO of course.

I last looked in detail 6 years ago, maybe it isn't quite so disappointing now?

 

[BigBob]

Here:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/baseline-for-hv-battery-soh-performance.12815/post-279964​

$60k comes from $44,400 + $13,065 core charge if the old battery is not serviceable, plus labor. So if you drive over a road hazard that dents the case, you or your insurance company are out $57,465 plus labor. At the rate Taycans depreciate (sorry to bring up that topic!), the insurance company may total the car in that scenario.

Surely it's a mute point. a 3yr old Taycan (in UK anyway it seems) is worth less than the cost of a battery replacement. Replacing battery 7+ years down the line seems a total non-starter (no pun intended) unless you think it's going to become the next DB5. Which it isn't. I imagine porsche will be offering a £5k cost to dispose of them for you!

 

[TDinDC]

Surely it's a mute point. a 3yr old Taycan (in UK anyway it seems) is worth less than the cost of a battery replacement. Replacing battery 7+ years down the line seems a total non-starter (no pun intended) unless you think it's going to become the next DB5. Which it isn't. I imagine porsche will be offering a £5k cost to dispose of them for you!

This is the point I was trying to make about how all of the modern mass-produced cars seem to be created to be nearly disposable, which is a real shame.

 

[TDinDC]

I do like hybrids and have had at leat one since 2005, but I completely agree that very few are well integrated, only Toyota (+Lexus of course) and anybody licensing their technology are doing it in a technically elegant way - by that I mean light and simple.

Our Prius has averaged 157.5 mpg over the last 6 years FWIW.

All the others I have seen just add an electric motor and battery connected somewhere in the drive train to and existing IC engine/gearbox/clutch leaving a heavy, complex bodge. IMHO of course.

I last looked in detail 6 years ago, maybe it isn't quite so disappointing now?

I think Toyota/Lexis is an exception, and even within Toyota/Lexus world, Prius is a huge exception. Prius seems to be designed mainly as an EV with ICE support. I don't doubt your experience with the Prius. But compare that to the other hybrids, like the RX for example. We have owned Hybrid RXs for the last decade or so, and the hybrid gets only about 5 mpg better than the ICE. Sure, that's material, but is it worth the extra cost, complexity and weight for a household that drives low mileage? I'm not sure. We get them anyway because they tend to be the top of the line. And I personally do not want a Prius (although I appreciate them), which takes me back to preferring, at least for mass produced cars (i.e., not supercars) a pure EV or an ICE over a "normal" hybrid.

 

[BigBob]

This is the point I was trying to make about how all of the modern mass-produced cars seem to be created to be nearly disposable, which is a real shame.

Yep. It’s just plain wrong.

 

[f1eng]

I think Toyota/Lexis is an exception, and even within Toyota/Lexus world, Prius is a huge exception. Prius seems to be designed mainly as an EV with ICE support. I don't doubt your experience with the Prius. But compare that to the other hybrids, like the RX for example. We have owned Hybrid RXs for the last decade or so, and the hybrid gets only about 5 mpg better than the ICE. Sure, that's material, but is it worth the extra cost, complexity and weight for a household that drives low mileage? I'm not sure. We get them anyway because they tend to be the top of the line. And I personally do not want a Prius (although I appreciate them), which takes me back to preferring, at least for mass produced cars (i.e., not supercars) a pure EV or an ICE over a "normal" hybrid.

There is a marked difference between hybrid and plug in hybrid.

You wouldn’t expect a huge difference in fuel consumption from a simple hybrid, it is more efficient than a normal transmission but only 10% or so.
In the case of the very clever Toyota and Lexus system it is actually mechanically simpler than an IC engine and gearbox, and maybe lighter, there are explanations on the internet.

Our latest Prius is a the plug-in hybrid version so has a bigger motor and battery than a simple hybrid and can be much more efficient, depending on use. Ours can do 30 miles or so before the petrol engine starts unless you want maximum power.
It is heavier than the normal hybrid but nowhere near as over-weight as other designs of plug in hybrid and many journeys are at least partly electric.

 

[TDinDC]

I have wondered whether you could design a plug in hybrid that is essentially meant to be 100% EV, like the Taycan, but with an ICE motor that is dedicated solely to (and just large enough to accomplish this) (1) while driving, keeping the battery from going below a preset amount (e.g., 20%); and (2) while parked, charging the battery to full (e.g. 85%). This would minimize the need to use the ICE at all (and therefore hopefully weight and maintenance issues) and yet save drivers from worrying about range while the charging system is developed.

 

[Scandinavian]

I have wondered whether you could design a plug in hybrid that is essentially meant to be 100% EV, like the Taycan, but with an ICE motor that is dedicated solely to (and just large enough to accomplish this) (1) while driving, keeping the battery from going below a preset amount (e.g., 20%); and (2) while parked, charging the battery to full (e.g. 85%). This would minimize the need to use the ICE at all (and therefore hopefully weight and maintenance issues) and yet save drivers from worrying about range while the charging system is developed.

I think that is what the BMWi3 had with their Range Extender. The ICE was basically a generator and small, light but also very small petrol tank. So the idea is possible but I have not seen any of that type apart from i3

 

[TDinDC]

Good point. So imagine if you took that concept and engineered it to accomplish the goals I outlined, used a pressurized fuel tank (to maximize life of fuel), and then some procedure to circulate the oil and run the motor briefly while being driven (or every N months if not driven).

 

[f1eng]

I have wondered whether you could design a plug in hybrid that is essentially meant to be 100% EV, like the Taycan, but with an ICE motor that is dedicated solely to (and just large enough to accomplish this) (1) while driving, keeping the battery from going below a preset amount (e.g., 20%); and (2) while parked, charging the battery to full (e.g. 85%). This would minimize the need to use the ICE at all (and therefore hopefully weight and maintenance issues) and yet save drivers from worrying about range while the charging system is developed.

The range extender BMW i3 was basically a BMW motorcycle engine and generator and fuel tank added to a i3 but it added about 200kg to the weight and took a lot of space and was markedly slower.
It seemed a popular choice on the internet and with motoring journalists but didn't sell well enough to proceed.
The BMW i3 and i8 were both clever engineering solutions to EV and hybrid designs but didn't make it in the market, I admire and would be happy to have either - though not the range extender version.

BMW realised the market is conservative and a genuinely superior but unfamiliar solution is a hard sell. They were too early for the market IMO.

 

[Scandinavian]

The range extender BMW i3 was basically a BMW motorcycle engine and generator and fuel tank added to a i3 but it added about 200kg to the weight and took a lot of space and was markedly slower.
It seemed a popular choice on the internet and with motoring journalists but didn't sell well enough to proceed.
The BMW i3 and i8 were both clever engineering solutions to EV and hybrid designs but didn't make it in the market, I admire and would be happy to have either - though not the range extender version.

BMW realised the market is conservative and a genuinely superior but unfamiliar solution is a hard sell. They were too early for the market IMO.

I also liked the i8 and wish I had bought one. It was quite advanced in the chassis and I think a lot of CF was used. I did not like the motor in it though. The sound did not match the look of the car for my taste?

If I remember correctly the i3 also had a lot of carbon fibre and they did a great job of matching CF to steel. that have different thermal expansion etc.

They were very early and quite expensive as well.

 

[f1eng]

I also liked the i8 and wish I had bought one. It was quite advanced in the chassis and I think a lot of CF was used. I did not like the motor in it though. The sound did not match the look of the car for my taste?

If I remember correctly the i3 also had a lot of carbon fibre and they did a great job of matching CF to steel. that have different thermal expansion etc.

They were very early and quite expensive as well.

Exactly.
A high boost turbo with few cylinders running at lower rpm is the most efficient IC engine and given its simplicity and low weight an excellent choice for the i8 technically, but unappealing to car enthusiasts and sounds awful. Just like current Formula 1.

The use of composites in both is clever and kept them much lighter than any competitor but made them inevitably expensive.

They were both ahead of their time, technically, and not what the market was ready for.

A bit like the Audi A2, by far the best engineered car in its sector but not a profitable product.

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