Taycan 4S tuning - hypothetically

[f1eng]

Hi,

just talked to the tuning guy and he explained me that for every Taycan which is not a turbo/s the mod is a no brainer regarding the batteries cause his mod increases the power delivery capability to the same level as the Turbo S. Battery is therefore still used approved by Porsche.
Only thing is pricing……..

I was sceptical before, more contemptuous now since the base and up to 4S have a smaller rotor in the rear motor, meaning he is talking bollox.

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[whitex]

Had anyone put this upgrade on an actual dyno? I wonder if this is just another throttle pedal remap, which tricks people into thinking their car has more power, without actually adding any.

 

[bsclywilly]

I was sceptical before, more contemptuous now since the base and up to 4S have a smaller rotor in the rear motor, meaning he is talking bollox.

It’s more a question of whether the smaller rear motor will reach its thermal limits before the battery does. Unless you’re doing consecutive launches or lapping a track I doubt this modification could do much damage if at all. The motor is the least susceptible to permanent damage compared to the battery and invertor (which are shared with the turbo). And as he advertises, the factory limits are still in place.

Had anyone put this upgrade on an actual dyno? I wonder if this is just another throttle pedal remap, which tricks people into thinking their car has more power, without actually adding any.

It’s not. It’s an increase in current to about 620amps according to Ute at HGP. Which, at nominal voltage works out to about 600hp for the 4/4S.

 

[bsclywilly]

I would also suspect that even with the upgrade on 4/4S, the smaller motor might not actually hit thermal limits. The motor and oil temp has a large delta to ambient so it’s going to have more efficient heat transfer to the cooling system the hotter it gets. But that in turn could reduce the cooling efficiency of the battery so in turn your battery thermals are still your limiting factor. The larger, more thermally efficient rear motor on turbo would just give you a bit more time before that point is reached.

 

[okkotonushi]

My other contact which is working in Weissach told me that this is a great and only option to tune without getting trouble with the battery or the engines.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

My other contact which is working in Weissach told me that this is a great and only option to tune without getting trouble with the battery or the engines.

From this and the above it sounds like a pure-software mod. It's also claimed to be fully reversible, undetectable and persistent (won't be undone by servicing). One of these claims is not true.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I would also suspect that even with the upgrade on 4/4S, the smaller motor might not actually hit thermal limits. The motor and oil temp has a large delta to ambient so it’s going to have more efficient heat transfer to the cooling system the hotter it gets. But that in turn could reduce the cooling efficiency of the battery so in turn your battery thermals are still your limiting factor. The larger, more thermally efficient rear motor on turbo would just give you a bit more time before that point is reached.

If I may translate this, you are saying that Porsche created a purely-artificial tiering of the models, using different parts (power electronics) to give the impression of real, physical limitations? Sounds legit and disappointing at the same time.

 

[Electron]

If I may translate this, you are saying that Porsche created a purely-artificial tiering of the models, using different parts (power electronics) to give the impression of real, physical limitations? Sounds legit and disappointing at the same time.

Porsche has been very public about using identical hardware across tiered models. The physical hardware is exactly the same between the Taycan 4 and 4S, and it's exactly the same between the GTS and Turbo, and the Turbo S is only slightly different from the GTS and Turbo.

When you buy a car, you're no longer buying just hardware. You're buying the combination of hardware and software. Porsche could theoretically, at some point, sell these power upgrades themselves as over-the-air updates. But I doubt they will choose to do that any time soon.

 

[CxM]

I assume there could be warranty issues with this tune?

Maybe this will push Porsche into offering power upgrades like Mercedes is offering on EQ's..
Eventually this may become standard in EV's with software locked to a certain "power", then factory unlocked "power" upgrades..

 

[Electron]

I assume there could be warranty issues with this tune?

Absolutely there would be warranty issues if Porsche found out the software was installed. They would have cause to invalidate the entire powertrain warranty, including the battery.

Assume your warranty is void before installing any aftermarket software modifications.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Porsche has been very public about using identical hardware across tiered models.

I've been following Porsche for, idk, 20 years? and have not gotten that impression. On the contrary, there was always something materially different between even adjacent models - if it's a shared engine, then there was a different body (wide, suspension, brakes) and vice-versa. That is, they always had a scale spanning ~2x (or 100%) of the entry level price, and those steps were different.

The physical hardware is exactly the same between the Taycan 4 and 4S, and it's exactly the same between the GTS and Turbo, and the Turbo S is only slightly different from the GTS and Turbo.

This has been debated (and debunked) at length here - many polemics on many threads. The technical manual actually indicates different part numbers between the various models - it's not always the motors, but like in the ICE era there was (or seemed to be) some diffs for any shared aspects. @bsclywilly 's assertion is that, in principle and based on the "revelations" from the German tuner, the parts we know to be different across models actually may not serve any other purpose than just that - being different. I'm still reluctant, but it's plausible - and that would be deeply disappointing for a company that predicates itself on no-nonsense engineering excellence. And not just disappointing from the 'greedy' perspective, but also the sloppiness of it - unlock 20% power with a registry change, are you fing kidding me? All of those forum fights about protecting code integrity.. I gave them way too much credit.

When you buy a car, you're no longer buying just hardware. You're buying the combination of hardware and software. Porsche could theoretically, at some point, sell these power upgrades themselves as over-the-air updates. But I doubt they will choose to do that any time soon.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't understand that, or that I object in principle to purely-software differentiation. If the 4 is virtually identical to the 4S, then one of them is simply a cynical profit grab (or a cynical stepping stone to justify the continued existence of a 2x price bracket between base and TS).

I do agree we're not likely to see this as an OTA/FoD, though.

 

[bsclywilly]

I assume there could be warranty issues with this tune?

Maybe this will push Porsche into offering power upgrades like Mercedes is offering on EQ's..
Eventually this may become standard in EV's with software locked to a certain "power", then factory unlocked "power" upgrades..

Any modification is a risk to have your warranty denied. I did get this response from them though when I asked how easily it would be to detect:
"We correct flash counters... The Porsche tester doesn't see that it's tuned."

Wir korrigieren Flash-Counter …. Der Porsche-Tester sieht nicht, dass es getunt ist.

Regarding the shared hardware, to put more detail in to it, the 4/4S start with the same hardware, 300amp front inverter/600amp rear and 130x245mm rear motor . The GTS/Turbo/TurboS then get a larger 210x245mm rear motor, then the turbo S gets a larger 600amp front invertor (and an extra cooling pump in the motor electronics circuit). Details taken from here. Part numbers, from some digging on ebay and Porsche parts schematics, do match up for the shared components across trim levels.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I did get this response from them though when I asked how easily it would be to detect:
"We correct flash counters... The Porsche tester doesn't see that it's tuned."

Right, because it's write-only memory? /s

 

[Electron]

I've been following Porsche for, idk, 20 years? and have not gotten that impression. On the contrary, there was always something materially different between even adjacent models - if it's a shared engine, then there was a different body (wide, suspension, brakes) and vice-versa. That is, they always had a scale spanning ~2x (or 100%) of the entry level price, and those steps were different.

You’re right that it’s not just the power levels that are different. There are definitely more standard and stylized interior and exterior features that go along with the tiers. But for the performance parts, of battery/inverter/motors, there is substantial reuse across the models. 2 battery variants, 2 rear motor variants, 1 front motor variant, 2 inverter variants.

And why wouldn’t Porsche reuse components and utilize software to further differentiate tiers? Hardware variation adds expense, especially in a constrained supply chain.

If you look at commercial and industrial segments, they have been selling identical engines with different power ratings, and selling factory power updates with warranty, for decades. Increasingly tighter emission standards have minimized the commonality across broad power ranges in recent years, but electric powertrains don’t have those limitations. Welcome to the era of the Software-Defined Vehicle.

 

[Electron]

"We correct flash counters... The Porsche tester doesn't see that it's tuned."

Unfortunately, flash counters are not the only way to detect software changes. There are also check sums that can detect any change in any portion of the software, including lookup tables. So I wouldn’t assume there is absolutely no chance of Porsche detecting these modifications.

Audi definitely detects modifications, even if the original software is restored and the flash counter is reset. Whenever their dealer service tool connects to the vehicle, it scans all modules and automatically sets a “TD1 flag” in the Audi warranty system, which voids the Powertrain warranty.

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