Would you buy your Taycan again?

[chylld]

I think it all comes down to Porsche treating it like a car first, and an EV second. Nearly every other EV out there you could just look at and know for sure it's an EV. The designs either look like they're trying to design "The Car of the Future", or they let engineers design the car based on what was aerodynamic. The Taycan is a car designed to fit EV components and remove the ICE, and it shows.

Surprisingly my personal reasons for going back to a Tesla are more driving- and lifestyle-focused. The thicker steering wheel, comfier seats, more confidence at 7/10ths, easier to park, easier for my young kids to open the doors, more room in their footwells for their bags, smarter locking/unlocking with phone key, etc etc.

And the Taycan actually does some EV things better than the Tesla... like adaptive (traffic-aware) regen, charging ports on either side, charger that's much easier to plug in, more comprehensive charging management with the HEM, better range, better EV drivetrain sound (even without electric sport sound) etc.

Design-wise the Taycan Cross Turismo is still (in my eyes) the sexiest car in the world. It oozes presence without shouting that it's an EV. It's just that for me and my family, we'd rather take the Tesla home thanks.

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[feye]

Okay, context here is probably important.

I was not taking buttons or icons. I was referring to marketing materiel where performance and efficiency of the car would improve over time with OTA.

My 4S+ MY2020 20inch has excellent performance and efficiency. How can it be improved with software?

 

[scav]

My 4S+ MY2020 20inch has excellent performance and efficiency. How can it be improved with software?

Because it’s already powered by software? Or is the argument here that software is simply finished at some point?

In all my years engineering a bunch of high volume systems this was never the case. There is always places to improve, or places with minor bugs.

The car is only a “drivers car” because the (software) systems work together. If there’s a way that can be improved, I want that.

 

[scav]

Oh gosh, this is so wrong I don’t know where to start. You think what makes a Porsche such an exceptional driver’s car is the software?

For this particular car it’s absolutely software (or firmware if you like). And just to be clear, I don’t mean the PCM.

Of course, I could be wrong, and Porsche built this car as a mechanical and analog car…

 

[whitex]

This is your first Porsche, isn’t it…

Porsche is a niche sports car manufacturer that has been designing and building some of the best sports cars and sports sedans in the world for better part of 60 years by refining ergonomics, chassis and suspension design, steering geometry and feel, and power trains...yet you think the reason the Taycan is such a good drivers car is due to it's software?

Greater and greater part of the Porsche design is software. Active suspension - controlled by software. Stability control, software. Rear wheel steering - software. Even wheel differentials are no longer just mechanical. Software tends to simplify the mechanical design while enabling features previously impossible. And yes it can be improved. When the very Taycan first came out, I test drove it and to be perfectly honest I didn't like a number of things about the way it drove. I wasn't crazy about the accelerator curve or the rough gear shifting at odd times, or even the hill-hold feature which at the time seemed like it was very crude binary "brake on/brake off" making for a poor steep hill experience as compared to my Model S at the time for example. Two years later I test drove another one, they smoothed pretty much all of my issues with the way the car drives. While they likely made some mechanical improvements too, I suspect the bulk of the driving experience improments was software.

 

[Jhenson29]

For this particular car it’s absolutely software (or firmware if you like).

Greater and greater part of the Porsche design is software. Active suspension - controlled by software. Stability control, software. Rear wheel steering - software. Even wheel differentials are no longer just mechanical.

Most people tend to follow the narrative that Tesla has better software and the Taycan is a better driver’s car.

But…if the driving is just software, then doesn’t the better driver’s car have better software…??

I think there’s more engineering beyond just the software. You could have the best software in the world but with nothing else to back it up, you’ll be left with a GameBoy that can fart and keep your dog cool.

 

[whitex]

You’re massively oversimplifying the engineering behind making a car go down the road in an impressive fashion. Again, first Porsche? First sporty car?

While I am not underplaying the role of mechanical engineering, I think you don't realize how much software there is in a Taycan. Forget Taycan for a minute though, remember VW ID4, how VW manages to design the physical car, secure supply chains, setup a factory for this whole new type of car, and the realized the software was not going to be ready for another year at least? They were manufacturing cars which sat in a parking lot for a year while waiting for a basic version of software to just get the car moving and enable over the air updates to deliver fixes, optimizations, and features not needed for it be a basic functioning car. VW way underestimated the effort required to write software as compared to mechanical engineering. Everything in a Taycan is controlled by software, battery, motors, brakes, steering, doors, seats, windows, infotainment, hvac (heck, even vents are not manually adjustable without software in the Taycan!). You'd be hard pressed to find what isn't touched by software in that car.

Btw, not my first Porsche, definitely not first sporty car (actually, holding out for a Turbo allocation because the 4S felt a bit underpowered compared to my current daily driver).

 

[whitex]

Most people tend to follow the narrative that Tesla has better software and the Taycan is a better driver’s car.

But…if the driving is just software, then doesn’t the better driver’s car have better software…??

Most people don't realize the amount of software in the car. They often judge Tesla to be superior because they progress much faster than any other manufacturer. Tesla's main advantage is "continuous integration" enabled by very effective rapid OTA deployment capability, combined with amazing remote debugging and telemetry data collection. This means they can iterate very quickly, try new things on a few hundred cars, if they don't work, change them back quickly, if they work, deploy them to more cars, watch for any issues. Traditional manufacturers follow processes and standards, like ISO26262 which requires a lot more effort (i.e. money) to develop, but result in more stable software. The drawback of course is that you cannot make small tweaks/fixes quickly. Imagine if Porsche had the capabilities Tesla does, they would have fixed the alarm issue, at least temporarily, very quickly, rather than taking forever - for example they could have quickly deployed a new option to disable the faulty alarm sensor, then when retrofitted with proper hardware, you could re-enable it in the PCM. Unfortunately, in the rigid automotive development process, adding a new menu item to disable a sensor would take many months to implement, test, and deploy, so not worth it.
Which approach is better? That depends on who you ask. Tesla approach definitely benefits Tesla a lot, but can also be attractive to customers who want to always drive the bleeding edge experimental stuff. When you drive a Tesla, you get features the rest of the manufacturers will have a couple of years later (or more). Not all customers like being experimented on however. I personally feel the ideal medium is somewhere in the middle, a car with rapid OTA and telemetry/remote-debug capabilities without being a part of a bleeding edge test fleet. By the way, Tesla experiments with new bleeding edge hardware too, while collecting data via OTA telemetry, and dealing with any possible issues via software updates whenever possible. It is worth mentioning that what Tesla does is not without risk, risk which larger manufacturer perhaps cannot afford to take, but as I mentioned before, I think there exists a happy middle ground which I hope the other manufacturers achieve, without falling for the temptation to abuse it like Tesla does (e.g. shipping vaporware features or completely untested designs).

I think there’s more engineering beyond just the software. You could have the best software in the world but with nothing else to back it up, you’ll be left with a GameBoy that can fart and keep your dog cool.

... and make a Taycan Turbo S look like it's gradma's pacer on any straightaway, launch mode or rolling start, and of course will go noticeably further on a full battery too ...

Of course the power of the Plaid is not all software though (I'm sure physical motor, drive train, and battery design played a role here too), but a lot of what they achieved is because of rapid development and experimentation. Remember, Tesla has a fraction of the experience building cars than Porsche, and yet they definitely can give them a run for their money.

 

[gnop1950]

...
Of course the power of the Plaid is not all software though (I'm sure physical motor, drive train, and battery design played a role here too), but a lot of what they achieved is because of rapid development and experimentation. Remember, Tesla has a fraction of the experience building cars than Porsche, and yet they definitely can give them a run for their money.

Both the Plaid and the Lucid have in excess of 1000HP, 1020 HP for the Plaid, and 1111 HP for the Lucid compared to the max 750HP of the Turbo S so I'm sure the motors have a lot to do with it, actually the biggest factor, and it isn't a surprise they'd beat the Turbo S in a straight-up drag race.

I'm not sure Porsche is now, or has ever, emphasized drag racing. They've always been a "driver's" car.

But back to software. There is software involved with pretty much every aspect of a car. Personally, I'd break it into two categories. 1. Drive train and handling and 2. Convenience. It seems to me that most of the complaints about the Taycan (actually Porsches in general) seem to be about the Convenience software which is the most visible. The drive train and handling (suspension) software seem to be best in breed or close to it.

Everyone should buy a car that fits their budget and meets their needs/desires. Personally neither any of the Teslas nor the new Lucid appeals to me. If I couldn't afford the Taycan, I was originally going to get a 911, I'd probably be looking at a 718 if cost were a major concern. If I were forced to choose a less expensive EV I might even go for the Mach-E.

 

[Windpower]

Tesla's main advantage is "continuous integration" ... try new things on a few hundred cars, if they don't work, change them back quickly

Or not change them back even if they don't work.

In the middle of the winter, Tesla decides to roll out a major new release which replaced the on-screen seat heater controls with game buttons. First, who plays games while driving their car? Anyone who answers "I do" should stay very far away from me. Second, the only people who don't need seat heaters in the winter are Tesla engineers in sunny California who also thought a steering wheel heater was unnecessary (Tesla didn't roll out steering wheel heaters on their model Y until a year after the launch). The rest of us in North America and probably in Europe as well use seat heaters daily in the winter (the seat heater button exists, but its hidden in a sub menu while the game button is right on the main display).

While its nice to be able to push new releases out over-the-air, you're still at the mercy of Tesla to make good (or bad) choices in what they push.

 

[XLR82XS]

Like I said, you're just not a car guy are ya. If you can't figure out why a Plaid is faster in a straight line than a TTS... You sound like Tesla is the right car for you, particularly if you can't tell the difference in driving dynamics between the Taycan and a Tesla. Why spend all this extra money on the Porsche, when you can go faster in a straight line in a Tesla and play Fortnite on the PCM while doing so?

He's not. Give the other 2 cars a third motor then retest.

 

[whitex]

I'm not sure Porsche is now, or has ever, emphasized drag racing. They've always been a "driver's" car.

Looking at Porsche marketing materials, when they highlight the differences between different trims, they emphasize 3 parameters: range, horsepower with Launch Control, and 0-60mph time with Launch Control. So 2 out of 3 top specs emphasized by marketing have to do with drag racing (Launch Control doesn't do much for other driving dynamics), and the 3rd one is range. What Porsche marketing materials don't talk about launch control power or 0-60mph times?

 

[gnop1950]

Looking at Porsche marketing materials, when they highlight the differences between different trims, they emphasize 3 parameters: range, horsepower with Launch Control, and 0-60mph time. So 2 out of 3 top specs emphasized by marketing have to do with drag racing (Launch Control doesn't do much for other driving dynamics), and the 3rd one is range. What Porsche marketing materials don't talk about launch control power or 0-60mph times?

Straight-line performance and drag racing are, at least to me, completely different topics and I grew up close to Island Dragway in the 1960s and watched many drag races. None of these cars stands a chance against a real dragster.

Porsche Launch Control has been around for a while since the early 2000s I believe. To me, and I suspect I'm not alone, it is just part of the overall driving experience. There are, and always have been, cars faster than Porsches in straight-line acceleration. But only a few cars have been able to provide the balanced driving experience provided by a Porsche.

I haven't driven or even seen a Lucid in person yet, but just from reading reviews, I'm not really interested either. I have driven a Model S and ridden in a Model 3, I found both uninteresting for a variety of reasons.

To be honest these types of comparisons always leave me a little bemused. Except for them all being EVs the three cars have very little in common. Perhaps I'm just not enough of an EV enthusiast. The Taycan is the only EV that has tempted me. If it didn't exist my next new car would have been another ICE vehicle.

 

[whitex]

Straight-line performance and drag racing are, at least to me, completely different topics and I grew up close to Island Dragway in the 1960s and watched many drag races. None of these cars stands a chance against a real dragster.

Porsche Launch Control has been around for a while since the early 2000s I believe. To me, and I suspect I'm not alone, it is just part of the overall driving experience. There are, and always have been, cars faster than Porsches in straight-line acceleration. But only a few cars have been able to provide the balanced driving experience provided by a Porsche.

I haven't driven or even seen a Lucid in person yet, but just from reading reviews, I'm not really interested either. I have driven a Model S and ridden in a Model 3, I found both uninteresting for a variety of reasons.

To be honest these types of comparisons always leave me a little bemused. Except for them all being EVs the three cars have very little in common. Perhaps I'm just not enough of an EV enthusiast. The Taycan is the only EV that has tempted me. If it didn't exist my next new car would have been another ICE vehicle.

I was responding to you saying that Porsche is not emphasizing drag racing features. Launch Control is a obviously a straight line acceleration (from a standstill) or a drag racing feature, so you are incorrect.

Also, I never said straight line acceleration is the most important feature for a sport car. Is it however one of the features people do care about, or else nobody would be buying the higher trims. If everyone was like you, everyone would buy base Taycan and load it with options they want. Unless you care about hp and acceleration, no reason to pay for Turbo, Turbo S, or even 4S in the case of a Cross Turismo. Same spec 4S vs. Turbo S is still less expensive.

 

[gnop1950]

I was responding to you saying that Porsche is not emphasizing drag racing features. Launch Control is a obviously a straight line acceleration or a drag racing feature, so you are incorrect.

Also, I never said straight line acceleration is the most important feature for a sport car. Is it however one of the features people do care about, or else nobody would be buying the higher trims. If everyone was like you, everyone would buy base Taycan and load it with options they want. Unless you care about hp and acceleration, no reason to pay for Turbo, Turbo S, or even 4S in the case of a Cross Turismo. Same spec 4S vs. Turbo S is still less expensive.

Bragging rights are important to some people so there is that as an additional perk for having better 0-60 times. As a marketing ploy, why not? Those, like myself, that really don't care all that much will just ignore it, and it may bring others that place more importance on that stat. How many people place 0-60 at or near the top of their list of must-haves I have no idea.

Passing speed, say 50-80, is much more important to me and all of the cars mentioned should perform acceptably in that regard.

I'd guess that everyone buying a Taycan cares about speed and acceleration up to a point. How fast is fast enough? For me, any car that can do 0-60mph in less than 4 seconds has more pure speed than I'll ever use.

I'm getting a 4S, I liked the idea of dual motors. I dressed it up to my taste and it ended up well above the MSRP for a Turbo. I did consider a GTS, Turbo, and even a Turbo S. But all of the alternatives, especially the Turbo S, were more expensive and really offered me nothing except a few tenths of a second of additional acceleration in launch mode.

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