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More chip problems in China

Force-walker

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I read this on twitter.

Im guessing this will cause a lot of problems.

See thread here:

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ben1

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I read the US is pushing the dutch government to block export of ASML lithography machines for chip production. ASML is the only company in the world that can make these machines for the most advanced chipsets.

This is going to cause big problems if there aren't enough chip factories in the world.
Protectionism will cause economic problems in any case. Looks like the economic growth of the 'age of globalisation' will come to an end soon.
 

Fish Fingers

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I read the US is pushing the dutch government to block export of ASML lithography machines for chip production. ASML is the only company in the world that can make these machines for the most advanced chipsets.

This is going to cause big problems if there aren't enough chip factories in the world.
Protectionism will cause economic problems in any case. Looks like the economic growth of the 'age of globalisation' will come to an end soon.
Yep..... Looks like globalisation is unravelling at a rapid rate of knots, and the fragility of 'just in time' production is going with it.
 

Archimedes

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Not really new; we’ve blocked cutting edge chip tech transfer to China for a long time. We’re just trying to enforce it better now. The stuff that’s being blocked is the very high end stuff used for supercomputing, AI/ML, and military.
 

TXSchnee

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VW group uses mostly ARM designed chipsets, they have zero teams in China designing them (designed in Austin, TX). I would be surprised if any EU automaker orders chips from China for their vehicles, TSMC in Taiwan is probably the biggest producer.
 


whitex

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VW group uses mostly ARM designed chipsets, they have zero teams in China designing them (designed in Austin, TX). I would be surprised if any EU automaker orders chips from China for their vehicles, TSMC in Taiwan is probably the biggest producer.
Perhaps you didn't know this, but ARM does not manufacture any chips. They license intellectual property (IP) to companies which design chips, which in turn have them manufactured by foundries. For example, the only US company that its own chip manufacturing capabilities is Intel - everyone else, Apple, AMD, Nvidia, etc. all license ARM IP, add their own, then have it manufactured by foundries such as TSMC in Taiwan or Samsung in Korea, or other places not in the USA. Even Intel is behind as far as latest chip manufacturing technologies, and uses TSMC to make its most advanced chips. Similar but worse situation in UK (where ARM is based) - IIRC they have one small foundry there, nowhere near latest technology.
 
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whitex

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I read the US is pushing the dutch government to block export of ASML lithography machines for chip production. ASML is the only company in the world that can make these machines for the most advanced chipsets.

This is going to cause big problems if there aren't enough chip factories in the world.
Protectionism will cause economic problems in any case. Looks like the economic growth of the 'age of globalisation' will come to an end soon.
Globalization proved too vulnerable to geo-political events, such as wars. That in itself is a huge risk to economies. COVID and the war in Ukraine showed the world how vulnerable industries all over the worlds were to disruption in countries all the way on the opposite side of the world. Turns out when a pandemic hits, saving yourself doesn't work well if you are dependent on everyone else. Same is true about wars, keeping peace in your backyard doesn't help you if a war breaks out elsewhere. Keeping world peace has proven elusive and expensive.

Globalization was definitely nice while it lasted, but a lot of companies are looking into de-globalization as a risk management strategy, as well as vertical integration (in automotive Tesla is leading the way, recently proving to the worlds how vertical integration has helped them make more cars than other manufacturers in the same categories).
 
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TXSchnee

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Perhaps you didn't know this, but ARM does not manufacture any chips. They license intellectual property (IP) to companies which design chips, which in turn have them manufactured by foundries. For example, the only US company that its own chip manufacturing capabilities is Intel - everyone else, Apple, AMD, Nvidia, etc. all license ARM IP, add their own, then have it manufactured by foundries such as TSMC in Taiwan or Samsung in Korea, or other places not in the USA. Even Intel is behind as far as latest chip manufacturing technologies, and uses TSMC to make its most advanced chips. Similar but worse situation in UK (where ARM is based) - IIRC they have one small foundry there, nowhere near latest technology.
Well aware ARM doesn't actually produce chips, notice I said ARM designed. There are fabs already in, or being enlarged in Austin. Samsung has a huge fab currently here, and is currently building an even larger one in Taylor TX, an Austin suburb, NXP also has a fab here. The issue of the blocking of fab and chip tech to China simply won't affect most car makes, as China doesn't make any of the chips used in US or EU auto manufacturing, nor do they design the chip sets. There will be issues if Xi attacks Taiwan, but I don't think he is stupid enough to do so. As to where ARM is headquartered, while they are out Cambridge, they do not design the high powered chips there, all of that is done in the US.
 


whitex

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Well aware ARM doesn't actually produce chips, notice I said ARM designed.
"ARM designed" means nothing as far as where it would be produced. ARM IP is in plenty of chips manufactured all over the world, including China. In other words, just because something is "ARM designed" does not mean it's not manufactured in China. The US is trying to limit China's ability to manufacture, not design (since that would be much harder).
 

TXSchnee

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"ARM designed" means nothing as far as where it would be produced. ARM IP is in plenty of chips manufactured all over the world, including China. In other words, just because something is "ARM designed" does not mean it's not manufactured in China. The US is trying to limit China's ability to manufacture, not design (since that would be much harder).
the US is blocking both design and fab from China. The premise of this post is that China does either of those in large numbers for auto manufacturing, which isn’t true. The new, high powered chipsets that are being utilized in consumer goods, cloud storage and auto manufacturing are not built or designed in China, they don’t have the capability at this point. So if Xi invades Taiwan, there may be an issue, otherwise the new blocks on technology transfer (which specifically includes blocking chip tech where at least 5% was designed in the US, so basically all high powered chips) won’t affect the average car buyer.
 

Archimedes

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I think the original post in this thread was intended more as a political statement than a discussion about automotive tech.
 

TXSchnee

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I think the original post in this thread was intended more as a political statement than a discussion about automotive tech.
Possibly, but a lot of people read the articles and seem to be under the impression that the US and EU are completely beholden to China for most tech things. Quite simply, while the post may indeed be more political than worried about more Taycan build delays, both options seem to not understand the nuance of the new restrictions.
 

whitex

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The new, high powered chipsets that are being utilized in consumer goods, cloud storage and auto manufacturing are not built or designed in China, they don’t have the capability at this point.
Yes, the chips that provide ADAS functionality are very advanced tech, but the majority of the chips in the cars are not the bleeding edge chips requiring 7nm tech. For example microcontrollers in ECU's such as ones controlling door locks/windows or powered steering column adjustment are using such old tech that even manufacturers such as Intel don't even have fabs to manufacture them. Auto manufacturers continue to use the old chips as they are inexpensive, safety certified, proven designs which work, so they see no reason to change. I don't know whether Porsche has any Chinese made chips, but would not be surprised if they did. Beyond microcontrollers/processors, there are are components, from passives like resistors or capacitors, of bus drivers like CAN (may be considered a chip), which may also come from China. It's hard to build something without Chinese components of some sort if you are trying to cost optimize. They probably have a second source for those parts from outside of China, but that second source may not have the capacity to take over 100% of the demand quickly, and it's likely more expensive.
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