Used 4CT Feedback Request -- Bellevue WA & Deerfield Beach FL

[Jonathan S.]

Please note that my legal counsel advises me that I am not liable for any marital discord arising from Surprise Porsche Purchases by following my example. Your viewing of this post constitutes the equivalent of a signed waiver of release.

The even funnier part of “let me do my job” is that he actually did indeed do a good job of it! And had he not, given the combination of WA DOL and MA RMV practices, I probably still would not be driving the car. So much relieved he was on top of it (even if his communication style was often concerning, and even if he was baffled at first by MA RMV practices, but such practices are indeed baffling).

I think the deal being in the PNW was just luck of the draw, i.e., combination of: nowhere-near-new mileage + long options list for base 4CT + traded into non-Porsche dealer.

By contrast, that listing is by far the best deal I’ve seen for either a 4CT or 4SCT. Also the most mileage I’ve seen, yet I’ve also seen 4CT listings with almost as many miles yet far lower % discounts. (I’m usually sensitive on excessively colorful colors, but that blue looks fine to me, although no roof rails – the frustrations of the infinitely configurable configurator!)

Every now and then I look at my spreadsheet (no longer updated BTW) and click on some listings that I thought at the time were far above market-clearing levels. Sure enough, some have come down in price, but only ~10%. Others still haven’t budged. TBD whether these dealers are unrealistic about current market conditions or taking a calculated risk as to whether holding out a couple more months will find a perfect buyer for the specific build.

Ground clearance, the New England snow pack right now is rather lacking, and will be until … well, perhaps the entire winter by Tahoe standards. However, I did have two excellent tests of Gravel Mode recently:

1. First, two roundtrips on a crazy steep and rough dirt/gravel/rock (mainly the third element) to accompany our daughter to a Wilderness First Aid course. The course did not take place in the wilderness, but the instructor has an amazing mountain-top dog training facility. This road would have been a hoot on a mountain bike. Gravel bike, I’m not sure I would have made it up! But no scraping with the 4CT.
2. Second, driving to ski patrol instructor training this weekend, just a ski resort with paved parking lot, but the dirt stretch in a city center from road construction (that seems to have been going on for years now – perhaps because it has) was even longer on Saturday morning, and the Friday monsoon had turned it into a linked series of potholes only vaguely resembling a road. Were it not an officially designed public way with which I’m familiar, I never would have driven on it. Everyone was driving slower than a walking pace. Looking at cars coming at me in the other direction, I would see large portions of their tires/wheels temporarily disappear (then eventually reappear, fortunately). Once again, no apparent scraping or other issues with the 4CT in gravel mode.

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[rich_r]

Ha- legal disclaimer noted. That's great to hear that you haven't experienced any scraping yet. Now that you have the CT, how many times have you driven your Allroad?

As for the CT at the Mini dealer, I continue to be tempted. It's got the "minimum spec" that I'm ok with (primarily adaptive cruise control and premium pkg). On a side note, why doesn't Porsche just make that stuff standard -- they are already expensive so its not like new buyers will be deterred if the car costs an extra 10k or so. Weirdly, its hard to find Taycans that have even those options. Ideally i'd love to have upgraded leather and massage seats but those options are rare on base CTs (though many seem to have far more frivolous and expensive cosmetic options).

I actually do like that blue. Almost like an omen, a CT in that exact blue drove by me today while i was out walking the dog. I secretly want mamba green, but dont have cojones to pull it off. Gentian is probably my ideal color. Not a fan of the grey interior though its better than the beige i suppose. Also, based on the pics it looks like they barely detailed the car (dirt and fingerprints all over). It's kind of odd that a MIni dealer in Tennessee is attempting to sell an expensive used Porsche EV...but maybe that's partly why the price seems attractive.

 

[Jonathan S.]

I have driven my A6ar for the following:

1. Short drive for the sake of driving it to keep the battery, tires, etc., ok, since it had been sitting unused for 25 days.
2. Another short drive to a local German car specialist to see if a quick fix might be possible for how the key fobs were no longer working after that 25-day hiatus, but after a few such quick fixes (e.g., disconnecting and reconnecting the 12v battery), he came up against the immovable object of a scan error from the comfort control module.
3. Half-hour drive to the dealer, where after six hours including much back-and-forth by their technician with Audi (and also replacing the car’s 12v battery, for no apparent reason), concluded that the problem was the comfort control module.
4. Upcoming half-hour drive back from the dealer once the replacement module arrives (3-4 business days after my appointment, no sense rushing such matters apparently) and is installed.

Back to used 4CT builds, I too was baffled by how $100k++ cars can lack features that are standard on a Subaru. Ditto for even the occasional ~$150-170k builds I reviewed on pricier trims. But then again, the used market’s disadvantage is the new build order market’s advantage, since you can spec *exactly* what you want and nothing more. I liked how when I was spec’ing my ideal build – to which my used purchase came sufficiently close – that I could choose also sorts of features I liked w/o having to bother with any add’l hp.

And I too was baffled by the preferences of all these prior Taycan buyers who paid significant sums for all sorts of cosmetic options that seem barely discernible, yet didn’t want creature comforts like massage seats. But perhaps they would have been equally baffled by my preferences!

Agreed on Gentian as favorite color. I spec’d the equivalent color on our i4. Fortunately my wife also likes it, since it’s her car (after the initial shock of its arrival wore off, and after I tested it for the first ~3k miles).

And agreed on the inner desire for Mamba Green, which looks absolutely stunning. But in New England, I dunno, just seems too attention-getting … although then again, the CT in any color looks absolutely outrageous (I still haven’t gotten over mine – as in, wait, what is that vehicle … oh, it’s mine?!?), so perhaps Mamba would have just been bouncing the rubble for getting attention!

Of the used 4CT listings I reviewed that were neither at Porsche dealers nor from private sellers (all of them absurdly unrealistic), most were at the kinds of dealers that you would expect to be receiving them as trade-ins or taking a chance on a wholesale purchase or trade with another dealer. But a few were like this, i.e., marques that didn’t appear to have any new vehicles whose price would exceed the trade-in value.

Although I’m no Carfax expert, upon reviewing the report and the dealer websites, my hunch is that this 4CT was actually traded in at the sister BMW dealer. This regional chain has five used Porsche listings: one at BMW, three at Mini, and one at (wait for it) Subaru (although less than half the price of the most expensive possible new Subaru).

 

[rich_r]

Yeah- modern cars are very indeed very sensitive to having their batteries run low. I've never heard of a car losing track of its key fobs though. Our Land Rover likes to do more playful things when left for a week or more like resetting the language to UK English, changing the gauge cluster layout and/or forgetting bluetooth devices. Anyway, sorry to hear that- it's always frustrating to deal with issues like that. But I kind of suspected that you weren't driving that AR much after getting the Taycan. You'd probably need to be carrying 4 passengers plus luggage on a long trip to make you consider it now. Atleast for my driving, i'd probably only have to subject myself to the horrors of CCS public charging maybe 5% of the time. Other than that, most of my driving is easily done on a 200 mile 'tether" from home.

Probably a good call on that car having been traded into the BMW dealer. Weird that the BMW dealer wouldn't keep it for themselves but who am I to judge how dealers choose to market used cars.

I did reach out to "test the waters" just asking some basic questions. The response I got was sent directly from a ricoh copier to my email and was a scan of the build sheet. No "Thank you for your interest", etc. Kinda weird, but maybe better than an aggressive "When can you come on in and test drive it?".

If I get serious, i'd probably need to bite the bullet and fly there to test drive it. While I won't be able to determine anything meaningful mechanically, I do want to get a sense of stuff like a) any odd smells b) general condition c) any obvious clunks, or other noises.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Gotta love how the Land Rover wants to reset to UK English!
And perhaps also reset the clock to GMT?

The A6ar is an essential element for our ~6 wk cross country family trip next summer.
Plus some driving-intensive backcountry skiing solo drives to northern New England this coming winter and spring.
Otherwise, yes, the 4CT is so much better!

I too experienced oddly disengaged responses to my inquiries on my 4CT listings. Some dealers even required repeated inquiries over a matter of days to provide just a window sticker or build sheet (which, although frustrating, made for a helpful test of whether I wanted to actually buy anything from such an unresponsive dealer).
Apparently such dealers think potential purchasers will “come in for a test drive” based on pictures (yes, that’s definitely a Taycan, gee thanks) and a standardized long list of features (wow, power windows, nice!), without posting the window sticker or build sheet.

If you want an interesting challenge, this could be a great deal:
https://www.autoconnectionllc.com/v...s-Turismo-AWD-for-sale-in-Montgomery-AL-36117

Lacks my requirement for HUD, but otherwise ticked off all my requirements, and it’s almost new.

Bought back by Porsche after the original owner most likely gave up in disgust after months of unsuccessfully trying to fix the passenger screen.
But it’s been fixed now by Porsche, and even if it somehow breaks again, it’s under warranty.
Plus of all the features to fail, even perhaps permanently, the passenger screen has to be the least important.

The big problem is that the price discount off MSRP is trivial.
And any further price discount that can be negotiated now has to compensate you for the presented discounted value of the lower resale value in the future because of the prior buy back on the title.
But this used car dealer must have bought it cheaply on the wholesale market, so once the reality finally sets in that this 4CT is not going to provide a huge profit to the dealer, perhaps this could be a great deal for a buyer.

 

[rich_r]

oh it resets to GMT as well! (credit for consistency there). Almost like the car is saying "if you're not going to drive me I'm going back to England!" Atleast I'm well prepared for all the software quirks i'm sure to encounter if I bite the bullet on Taycan ownership.

I guess I should be happy that this dealer actually gave me a build sheet right off the bat. Small wins! It is frustrating that most dealers (Porsche included) can't be bothered to list out what actual options their cars have. Maybe most buyers dont care ("I want car. Nice color. I buy". )

Yeah, i've come across that lemon'ed CT as well in my searches. And yeah, they'd need to drop the price A LOT. Even then, I dont think i'd be comfortable buying a branded title car.

For the blue on at the Mini dealer, what do you think is a reasonable initial offer? (I realize they are likely to say "This is the cheapest Taycan CT in the country!!) in response. Looks like its only been on their lot for a few weeks as well.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Too funny that the time zone also resets – I had been entirely kidding about that!

Small tip for obtaining build sheets for used listings at Porsche dealers: go to the Porsche website, enter a zip code for that dealer, and then you should see a listing there with the full spec, even if the Porsche dealer can’t be bothered to post it. (Although I wonder if your parenthetical aside really does reflect the mindset of some buyers!)

My mindset (whether correct or otherwise) is to offer a price that is likely lower than what the dealer would ultimately accept, but not so low as to be dismissed as an unrealistic buyer who is wasting the dealer’s time (although dealers certainly do not seem reluctant to waste a buyer’s time, and if anything their strategy seems to be that the more time they waste of a buyer, the more likely the buyer will be to capitulate and buy anything at any price).

Looks like it was traded-in on August 15 so that could be making them nervous about whether trying to sell such a niche vehicle is going to work out as well for them as they had hoped. Maybe offer … high $60s, with caveat that you’re not local, but willing to fly in for serious test drive (perhaps have an inspection at the Porsche dealer only ~2 miles away) and that although you appreciate their existing discount, you’re concerned about remaining warranty and lack of CPO. If that eventually gets the price down to low $70s, then I’d call that a success.

 

[ERuss]

@Jonathan S. , HA, your description of that experience is so true, those non-Porsche dealers that list lovely features as central locking and power windows, but make it extremely difficult to get the window sticker or build sheet. Porsche Finder is great for the cars at a Porsche dealer.

I didn't even click on that Montgomery, AL CT thinking the used car dealer and the situation would be a bit sketchy, but that build has what I want plus a bunch of options I don't care about. I'll look and see if it's around in a month or two - needs to come down in price a lot to be comfortable with it. Montgomery, Alabama huh...

@rich_r , used EV's are losing value every day they sit on the lot, I have heard that directly from sales associates at Porsche and Audi dealers, so I think you'd be able to negotiate the price on that blue one down pretty good. Go get 'em!

 

[Jonathan S.]

Worried about buying a lemoned Porsche EV at a used-car dealer in 'Bama -- where's your sense of adventure?
(From the guy whose used 4CT had been traded in by his & her big tech employees at an Infiniti dealer in Bellevue.)

In all seriousness, I wonder how many of these aspirational listing prices reflect a rational calculation for the potential add'l profit from that one perfect customer who might came along in love with exactly that spec vs foolishly refusing the recognize that the market-clearing price is now far lower and most likely becoming even lower in the near future?

 

[whitex]

In all seriousness, I wonder how many of these aspirational listing prices reflect a rational calculation for the potential add'l profit from that one perfect customer who might came along in love with exactly that spec vs foolishly refusing the recognize that the market-clearing price is now far lower and most likely becoming even lower in the near future?

Dealers will try anything that will maximize profits. There must be a reason why Audi dealers still print window stickers with $5K ADM even though there are over $30K in incentives and discounts to be had for informed customers- this is for a new eTron GT. When an uninformed customer comes, negotiation starts at MSRP+$5K, customer is happy to get the car at MSRP with some extras "thrown in". I was just reading on the eTron forum from a guy who, after reading about other people's deals, admitted that the dealer fleeced him pretty good, took advantage of his excitement to get a new eTron GT (they got him good, pocketed all incentives, jacked up interest rate pretty high, etc) - from his estimates, they got him for $1,150 extra per month (almost double the payment), compared to the deals other people were getting. There is a reason dealers spend millions fighting direct sales tactics, even when they are in the loop (like when Ford wanted to sell all EV's via the ford site, then dealer would deliver and get their regular commission). I've negotiated many, many car deals in my life, for myself as well as family and friends. I thought I knew all the tricks, at yet I learned a couple of new ones couple of months ago when buying an Audi, so I guess even the sales tricks are evolving and new ones are added to the repertoire of dealers. Pricing cars sky-high is not a new trick though. An interesting tactic I saw dealers try maybe 10-15 years ago on the east costs was pricing the car high but advertising exactly when the price will drop and by how much (e.g. price drops $1K every Friday). I haven't seen this more recently, so perhaps FOMO doesn't work as well as other tactics on people shopping for new cars.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Here's some amusement:

https://www.serramontesubaru.com/us...rancisco-f2e0e53d0a0e0a917c6e09fd2c71d826.htm​

1. Asking price of ~$120k for a MY 2021 used 4CT w/ ~7k.
2. On sale at a new car dealership for ... Subaru!
3. I watched the video expecting to see a wonderful juxtaposition of a Porsche on a dealer floor amidst a Subaru sea, but instead it's next to a ... BMW? In the same color as my wife's BMW i4 M50. And the 4CT is the same color as mine. I'm going to check our garage now just in case...

 

[ERuss]

Here's some amusement:

https://www.serramontesubaru.com/us...rancisco-f2e0e53d0a0e0a917c6e09fd2c71d826.htm​

1. Asking price of ~$120k for a MY 2021 used 4CT w/ ~7k.
2. On sale at a new car dealership for ... Subaru!
3. I watched the video expecting to see a wonderful juxtaposition of a Porsche on a dealer floor amidst a Subaru sea, but instead it's next to a ... BMW? In the same color as my wife's BMW i4 M50. And the 4CT is the same color as mine. I'm going to check our garage now just in case...

Hmmm, Subaru Soltera or Porsche Taycan??? Lol
Funny you are calling out that one. I almost went there today to check it out since I had to be over that way for a soccer game. Didn’t end up going, feel it’s not the right price w/o the CPO warranty and it’s missing one of my “must-have” options.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Hmmm, Subaru Soltera or Porsche Taycan??? Lol
Funny you are calling out that one. I almost went there today to check it out since I had to be over that way for a soccer game. Didn’t end up going, feel it’s not the right price w/o the CPO warranty and it’s missing one of my “must-have” options.

Why stop at just one Subaru Soltera when for the price of that Porsche Taycan you can own ... actually, just barely over two?
As much as I love Subaru as a company and detest Tesla as a company, I don't understand why anyone would pay ~$10k more (net of the $7.5k federal tax credit on a purchase) for a Soltera instead of a Model Y.

Back to that 4CT (which lacks the 2+1 for the center pass-through, so skiers need not apply!), been for sale at that dealership chain since March, when perhaps the $120k price might have been somewhat plausible, but probably needs to come down now by ~$30k to sell.

 

[whitex]

Back to that 4CT (which lacks the 2+1 for the center pass-through, so skiers need not apply!), been for sale at that dealership chain since March, when perhaps the $120k price might have been somewhat plausible, but probably needs to come down now by ~$30k to sell.

Vey niche color, no lane keeping (missing hardware, so no FOD), has some nice features like RAS. Still, overpriced, as evidenced by the fact that it hasn't sold. It could be that some high level manager at the dealership is driving it, so not in a rush to sell it, so no discounts (in my prior nationwide search for a Taycan I came across one of those, it was a horribly overpriced Turbo S CT, when I asked if they were willing to come back to earth with the price, I was told the GM was driving the car and is not really in a rush to sell it). That said, anyone actually wanting to buy this one should inquire. Perhaps their strategy is to keep listing the car high, but would accept an offer $20K-$30K below the listing price.

 

[ERuss]

If it wasn't for the lack of the 2+1 (yep, you called me out @Jonathan S. ) I would absolutely try that strategy @whitex . (I do not like Lake Keep Assist - keep it off permanently). Having been there since March, I am sure they know they are going to lose major $ if they sell it to any educated buyer who knows the market.

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