Dreaded Red Electrical System Error & Poll

[sun]

The service advisor responded that the Tech said Porsche is giving them instructions to only replace the e-box. It seems as though it's a bit risky based on the guidance from the PDF, but there isn't much else I can do here.

I just got my car back today. It's been 38 days. They replaced the e-box, but that was it. They also noted a coolant leak, which they said was unrelated, but they were in there. It was replaced under warranty. I haven't driven much, as I just drove it home. Previously, 85% would show 219 miles and today, at 90%, it's showing 264 miles. Time will tell if it gives more range, or is really giving my range back.

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[jld1]

They started work on mine today. Finally. Day 105! They said I'll probably get it by next week but I didn't think it took that long? Fix in a few days, test in a few days, should be end of the week no? Judging by the experiences of other users here.

 

[snstevens]

This has been great thread with lots of participation and voting. I was surprised that 48% of those who voted have had either some of their HV battery cells replace, or an entire replacement.

Since the two worst years were 2020 and 2022, is it correct to assign these causes?

2020 - First year of production. Problems happen and we are on the bleeding edge.
2022 - Primarily driven by the HV Battery adhesive and sealant issue.

Of course I don't know how many of the cars with an original battery are in each year, but my guess is that it is a fairly even distribution. The goal of course is to have the percentage drop over each successive model year. We may not be there yet.

Thoughts?

 

[jld1]

FINALLY got my car back yesterday after almost 4 months. The tech told me the invoice wasn't even ready yet due how extensive the work was, but it didn't seem like it was a full battery replacement but rather just certain modules. I'll report back when I get the invoice. But my tracking can now be updated as resolved. @electricsidecar

 

[Tooney]

FINALLY got my car back yesterday after almost 4 months. The tech told me the invoice wasn't even ready yet due how extensive the work was, but it didn't seem like it was a full battery replacement but rather just certain modules. I'll report back when I get the invoice. But my tracking can now be updated as resolved. @electricsidecar

Glad you got your car back.
Four months for battery service on a Taycan is unacceptable.

 

[jld1]

You are not kidding. I will also keep everyone here informed as to how Porsche proceeds with compensation for it. I've been in contact with someone from Porsche Cars NA. He has been very sympathetic to my case, fortunately. Although I'm not entirely sure how to approach the subject without seeming entitled. He asked me straight up what kind of compensation I was looking for, but I sort of skirted around a direct answer by telling him that I have been making payments to a car I'm not currently using, so I think got my point.

 

[snstevens]

You are not kidding. I will also keep everyone here informed as to how Porsche proceeds with compensation for it. I've been in contact with someone from Porsche Cars NA. He has been very sympathetic to my case, fortunately. Although I'm not entirely sure how to approach the subject without seeming entitled. He asked me straight up what kind of compensation I was looking for, but I sort of skirted around a direct answer by telling him that I have been making payments to a car I'm not currently using, so I think got my point.

Don't make this hard! Just tell the guy you want reimbursement for payments for 4 months....

If you don't ask for it you won't get it, and besides, this is so reasonable.

 

[X88]

My GTS was bricked by the red circle of death a few weeks ago. The good news is the fault cleared itself after three or so days, so I'm not faced with the prospect of my car being in the sick bay for months as a number of you have. The bad news is that Porsche have not been able to determine what caused the fault condition in the first place. I have no confidence that this was a one-off glitch and am dreading the red circle of death reappearing at a less convenient time and location. This time it was in my own garage; the next time it might be at a rest stop on a long distance drive.

I had driven the car the previous evening and it had about 150miles of range left in the battery. The battery was still showing the same range after the "Electrical system error" came up on the main display the next morning.

Unfortunately it was a full six days before my car was actually inspected by a Porsch technician:

• I waited a day in the hope the car would reset itself and clear the fault condition overnight (it didn't)
• The tow itself took an extra day as my car had to first be extricated on tow dollies from the sixth floor of my apartment's limited-headroom garage
• By the time it got to the dealership it was midday on a Friday and there was a long queue of other Porsche's already waiting for scheduled maintenance and mine had to wait in line
• The techs only got their first look the following Tuesday

By that time the fault condition had cleared itself so there was nothing to diagnose (Sod's Law ?) and apparently there was no history info available on the electrical system failure that had bricked the car (really ??).

My dealership tested the car over the next two weeks and were not able to find any faults in the electrical system and told me they were ready to return the car to me. Even though they were not able to find any issues with the electrical system and have given it a clean bill of health, they also can't explain why my was bricked for several days (there's no way to know when the fault condition actually cleared itself but it lasted at least 3 days).

When I return from travel and pick up the car this coming week, the conversation I plan to have with the dealership is about the service protocol to employ should my car need to be towed in again with the same issue, so they can have the best shot of retrieving detailed diagnostic information while the vehicle is still in a fault condition.

For example if they assigned a technician to immediately examine my car as soon at it arrives at the dealership, that would mean jumping the queue ahead of other vehicles already in for scheduled maintenance, but without this immediate examination there is every possibility that the fault condition will reset (as it did this time) before the tech has a chance to diagnose the fault. Once fault/diagnostic info has been retrieved and an initial diagnosis completed, the car can go back to the queue and wait for an available slot for the actual repair or remediation work to be done, and the tech can get back to their planned work on other vehicles ahead in the queue.

Given the sporadic and intermittent nature of EV system faults, and the critical need to retrieve error information from the faulty EV's system, perhaps this “rapid diagnostic” protocol should be standard operating practice at all dealerships.

This is a great user community and I've learned a lot over the past couple of years, so I'd appreciate any thoughts, advice and suggestions you all might have.

Thanks ...

 

[gtm]

By that time the fault condition had cleared itself so there was nothing to diagnose (Sod's Law ?) and apparently there was no history info available on the electrical system failure that had bricked the car (really ??).

My dealership tested the car over the next two weeks and were not able to find any faults in the electrical system and told me they were ready to return the car to me. Even though they were not able to find any issues with the electrical system and have given it a clean bill of health, they also can't explain why my was bricked for several days (there's no way to know when the fault condition actually cleared itself but it lasted at least 3 days).

Not finding a fault code is either complete BS or a massive failure on Porsche's part. OBDII which applies to all ICE vehicles, for pollution purposes, stores pending faults, current faults, and past faults (gone, but maintained in a history file). There may, or may not, be a requirement to store fault codes in an EV (there is no pollution impact from an EV fault) but for diagnostic purposes not storing a code is impossible to believe. The Car Scanner app can retrieve codes so Porsche does in fact store a lot of information. I suspect the techs found a fault code but most likely have no idea how to address it since the condition is gone (pretty common with generic ICE fault codes). You deserve at least that level of honesty.

 

[Tooney]

My reply to @X88 's post in other thread: https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/red-circle-of-death.20381/page-3#post-313848

 

[X88]

Not finding a fault code is either complete BS or a massive failure on Porsche's part. OBDII which applies to all ICE vehicles, for pollution purposes, stores pending faults, current faults, and past faults (gone, but maintained in a history file). There may, or may not, be a requirement to store fault codes in an EV (there is no pollution impact from an EV fault) but for diagnostic purposes not storing a code is impossible to believe. The Car Scanner app can retrieve codes so Porsche does in fact store a lot of information. I suspect the techs found a fault code but most likely have no idea how to address it since the condition is gone (pretty common with generic ICE fault codes). You deserve at least that level of honesty.

Thanks! I'll be prepared with your points for a robust discussion when I collect my car ... I've been in a time zone 13 hours different from Houston so have been communicating with them largely via email

 

[gtm]

Thanks! I'll be prepared with your points for a robust discussion when I collect my car ... I've been in a time zone 13 hours different from Houston so have been communicating with them largely via email

Just because I had nothing better to do I hooked up Car Scanner and checked for fault codes. There are 71 "Confirmed, test failed since last DTC clear (inactive)" codes stored for 14 systems. There is a section for "Engine control unit" and "High-voltage battery charger". "Electro-engine", "Battery management system" "HV converter 2" modules appear on the master list of modules. Not displayed since my battery hasn't thrown a code? Not displayed since they don't apply to the Taycan? Despite 71 failed system self-tests there has not been a single error message displayed on the dash (probably since they were one time events and it usually takes repeated failures to satisfy the coditions for displaying an error message). For something that would display in red and disable your car I would certainly expect there to be some data stored. If a cell phone app can get this level of data the factory really should be able to go deeper into the systems. The dealer has to be able to tell you something about what they saw.

 

[Avantgarde]

I am still puzzled by the complete mystery around these red circle of deaths. In a forum with so many detail oriented members, the level of detail on this topic is unbelievable all we know is “they replaced the multiple modules or whole battery- ”. There is absolutely no detail and intelligence around 1- what is going bad with a given cell (imagine going to doctor and all you hear is “we need to replace your stomach, don’t ask what is wrong with it” 2- What is causing multiple battery cell failures (if every single cell is susceptible to “failure” - whatever that is supposed to mean- at a certain probability rate, you’d expect failures to be more normally distributed among all cars. In reality there are so many cars with multiple cell failures, many cars without any. And there is word around “if it is multiple battery failures porsche is now replacing whole pack”.) 3- what does it all mean? The mysterious battery issue is somehow contagious? So when it impacts one pack it starts to impact others? Or most of our cars already have one bad battery cell but red circle shows up only multiple cells go bad? - this latter scenario would have a much different implication on reliability expectation. I dont think teslas are experiencing these type of battery mysteries? What could be the reason? - appreciate inputs from anyone with more insights

 

[Ducs]

Welp… you can add me to the list.

Red circle of death “electrical service error“ 2020 4S

 

[snstevens]

I am still puzzled by the complete mystery around these red circle of deaths. In a forum with so many detail oriented members, the level of detail on this topic is unbelievable all we know is “they replaced the multiple modules or whole battery- ”. There is absolutely no detail and intelligence around 1- what is going bad with a given cell (imagine going to doctor and all you hear is “we need to replace your stomach, don’t ask what is wrong with it” 2- What is causing multiple battery cell failures (if every single cell is susceptible to “failure” - whatever that is supposed to mean- at a certain probability rate, you’d expect failures to be more normally distributed among all cars. In reality there are so many cars with multiple cell failures, many cars without any. And there is word around “if it is multiple battery failures porsche is now replacing whole pack”.) 3- what does it all mean? The mysterious battery issue is somehow contagious? So when it impacts one pack it starts to impact others? Or most of our cars already have one bad battery cell but red circle shows up only multiple cells go bad? - this latter scenario would have a much different implication on reliability expectation. I dont think teslas are experiencing these type of battery mysteries? What could be the reason? - appreciate inputs from anyone with more insights

@Avantgarde - First, I agree with your comment that we are missing specifics as to why modules fail, and at what point module failure leads to total battery replacement. It seems to me that there are three possibilities --

• Manufacturing Defects in Modules -- Each module is manufactured by a third party (LG?) and every manufacturing line experiences some small degree of variation which can lead to occasional failures.
• Catastrophic Failure -- In this case an event occurs during Taycan use that causes the electronics, or cooling system to not support the HV battery, causing battery failure. While I have not heard of examples of these, they are certainly possible if Porsche didn't design robust and redundant systems, or if you are in an accident and the car is damaged.
• Usage-based Wear & Tear -- As it happens, there are optimal ways to keep your HV battery healthy, and if you don't follow these guidelines it can lead to individual module failure, or simply lower levels of maximum State of Charge. The recommendations are at this link and are a summary of a video in the same link that discusses battery chemistry.

Perhaps over time some of those affected will be able to share specific reasons why a battery module has failed. Personally, I doubt that a single module failure would lead to a spreading impact across multiple cells, but I could be wrong on that. Perhaps @whitex has some insights since he has been an EV owner across Taycan and Tesla.

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