Is it better to wait for %20 and charge ? Is it good have less charging cycles?

[W1NGE]

Hi everyone,
I’m little confused with something…We know that it is good to keep battery between 20-80/85.. Sometimes I don’t need too much range in city

Is it better to wait for %20 and charge or not? I can wait till 20 and have less charging cycles..
Do you think is it better to keep the battery between 50-80 and charge more frequently?
I have no idea which one is better..

A ''charging cycle' is 0% to 100% rather than a charging session which could be anywhere in between.

Don't sweat it.

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[slothinker]

Reading this good information makes me think that if one charges to 95% just before leaving on a long journey and charging to 95% along the way probably wouldn't be a bad thing at all, since the big problem with 100% charging is if the battery sits for a while at that level.

 

[tchavei]

charging to 95% along the way probably wouldn't be a bad thing at all

Depending on charging power, once you reach 80% it's downhill from there. Are you willing to waste the double or triple of time to get those extra 15% and also hog up the charger station for the other users? Chargers in Europe also cost per minute so a significant cost increase for those 15%.

On a trip, I usually charge up to whatever I need to get to my destination comfortably or 85%

I do admit that yesterday I put the car on charge at 150kW and went to the supermarket. When I returned the car was at 100%. Wasn't on purpose. Just couldn't decide on the milk brand ?

 

[Kaan34]

Depending on charging power, once you reach 80% it's downhill from there. Are you willing to waste the double or triple of time to get those extra 15% and also hog up the charger station for the other users? Chargers in Europe also cost per minute so a significant cost increase for those 15%.

On a trip, I usually charge up to whatever I need to get to my destination comfortably or 85%

I do admit that yesterday I put the car on charge at 150kW and went to the supermarket. When I returned the car was at 100%. Wasn't on purpose. Just couldn't decide on the milk brand ?

?

 

[anonymouse]

I’ve exclusively charged the car at IONITY […] - also often take it to 99%.

I do hope the IONITY chargers are not full at any point when you do that. In the UK quite a few IONITY chargers are now saturated and one of the main controllable causes (other than limited capacity of course!) is people charging over 80%. Especially those who put it at 100% and go to lunch during which a queue of five drivers forms….


I am sure you are mindful of this but it is such an important part of EV driver education that it is worth reminding ourselves. A surprising number of new drivers are unaware of the slowdown over 80% and/or refuse to take a later stop even if that makes their journey faster and/or don’t care about others queuing for 30-60 mins behind them.

I sent IONITY some suggestions on improving signage which might help - although I do wish Porsche would do the same as Tesla which is to force it down to 80% at busy stations.

There is nothing like queuing for an hour to convince people to dump their EV and go back to petrol!

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I do hope the IONITY chargers are not full at any point when you do that. In the UK quite a few IONITY chargers are now saturated and one of the main controllable causes (other than limited capacity of course!) is people charging over 80%. Especially those who put it at 100% and go to lunch during which a queue of five drivers forms….


I am sure you are mindful of this but it is such an important part of EV driver education that it is worth reminding ourselves. A surprising number of new drivers are unaware of the slowdown over 80% and/or refuse to take a later stop even if that makes their journey faster and/or don’t care about others queuing for 30-60 mins behind them.

I sent IONITY some suggestions on improving signage which might help - although I do wish Porsche would do the same as Tesla which is to force it down to 80% at busy stations.

There is nothing like queuing for an hour to convince people to dump their EV and go back to petrol!

Counterpoint: you may not know where the driver charging to 90% is going to stop next. I’ve gotten side glances (and I have given them, too) but if my next charging option is 150 miles away (over a mountain pass, in the winter), then you best have woken up earlier than me. ??‍

Having said that, here in the US we lack that legendary British queueing* instinct, and waiting/lining up for the next available charger is a stressful exercise.

*Eastern bloc was well-versed in this, too, but somehow most forget where they came from/how it used to be.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I do admit that yesterday I put the car on charge at 150kW and went to the supermarket. When I returned the car was at 100%. Wasn't on purpose. Just couldn't decide on the milk brand ?

EV ownership is all about planning: when to stop, how much to charge/for how long, what milk brand to buy.. tsk tsk.

 

[Tooney]

although I do wish Porsche would do the same as Tesla which is to force it down to 80% at busy stations.

What do you mean about forcing it down to 80%?

 

[anonymouse]

What do you mean about forcing it down to 80%?

Tesla pops up a message on the vehicle screen “High-usage supercharger. Charging limited to 80%”. Then it sets the max charge to 80%. The driver can move it up again but by making this a conscious act it appeals to the community instinct of the driver (not for those who lack it of course)

 

[tchavei]

EV ownership is all about planning: when to stop, how much to charge/for how long, what milk brand to buy.. tsk tsk.

After 3 months of ownership and 8000km travelled (just returned from Gibraltar yesterday) I can tl;dr the ownership of an EV like this:

The sole limitation of full EV adoption is the availability (read as working) of chargers. Period.

I was at around 66% in Gibraltar. Planned trip home. PCM decided that best would be driving directly to Seville to a CEPSA 150kW and recharge there. Estimated SoC on arrival was 12%

I arrived to the charger with 15%. I almost had a stroke minutes before as the road to the charger was closed for repairs but luckily the sign said "forbidden except for gas station users".

As I approached the charger, there were two pilons blocking the charging slot so I went inside the store and asked if I could charge up. "No, sorry. That charger been broken for months. No idea when they'll come to fix it. If ever"

That was when I almost had my second stroke.

My wife sumed it up the best "This feels like living in 1920 with a gas car wondering if the gas station will have fuel or if there's even a gas station"

So there I was. 12% charge, foreign country, no idea if the next charger would be the same or if I had a way of paying for it (depending on the network etc). I looked through my apps. TONS of chargers around me. Most greyed out. Most 50kW. Started searching through the pcm on chargers that actually displayed green status and available slots (albeit we all know that doesn't mean you'll be able to charge). I found a 100kW. I wasn't too worried. I mean, it's Seville. There will be chargers out there but I did have a funny feeling in my stomach and I was mildly (ok VERY) annoyed about that month long dead charger (I permanently wiped it out from ABRP btw).

I went to the 100kW and successfully charged up to 85% only then I somewhat felt relieved. Disappointed and annoyed but relieved.

Some Spanish member correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like some parts in the country aren't that commited to EVs. No chargers have any shade, most are at the far extreme of malls and roads. Feels like someone installed them because they signed a contract and then they don't give a crap anymore. That's totally opposite to what I experience back at home. I actually used to put my car on charge here because the spots are free and closest to the shopping entrances. You also get free shades at supermarkets and highways. You feel privileged owning an EV. During this trip I felt like the A***** who has an EV and must suffer for his poor choice.

Anyway, rant off.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

@tchavei - spot on, matches my observations fully: I don’t have range anxiety, I have charging anxiety. May be too subtle for some to get the difference, but drive to a destination in the middle of somewhere and you’ll know. We can’t expect to go just anywhere and back on a single charge.

Hey, at least you avoided the tourists.??

 

[tchavei]

@tchavei - spot on, matches my observations fully: I don’t have range anxiety, I have charging anxiety. May be too subtle for some to get the difference, but drive to a destination in the middle of somewhere and you’ll know. We can’t expect to go just anywhere and back on a single charge.

Hey, at least you avoided the tourists.??

Charging anxiety. That's exactly what I have. It's not the range. You can plan that perfectly. It's the unknown of the charger you pointed to is actually working or available.

I've had situations where a charger appears online in my apps but only charges for a minute and cuts off (unusable) and other situations where a charger shows as available but when you get there, someone left his car on charge (which long finished) and isn't around. I couldn't even squeeze my car close enough to unplug the other car and charge up myself.

I once even arrived to a "wall" of 10 chargers with 9 occupied and 1 free. Well guess what. The first person on the wall used the wrong socket so everyone else occupied the wrong sockets and guess who didn't have an available socket at the last charging slot? Me.

Those occurrences made me distrusted of "online" indications. They don't assure you 100% you'll be able to charge.

 

[Amelio]

great reply and a nice read, thank you

8 year/100,000 mile warranty don't worry about it

the car manages the battery - there is nothing _YOU_ can do to harm it or make it better

if you think you are charging the battery you are not paying attention to the 10's of thousands of lines of software code between you and the battery that are designed to manage the battery so that it meets the warranty claims

home L2 AC charging is not hard on the battery

as noted by @Scandinavian LiON battery life is estimated in terms of full charging cycles - any charging cycle that is not 0% to 100% is considered a fractional charging cycle (the exact fraction for any given charging cycle is mostly a SWAG affair (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) …in terms of overall battery life.)

industry standard "life time" estimates for LiON battery cells range from 800-3000 "full charging" cycles for the expected "life" of a LiON cell. This is based on environment, cell chemistry, manufacturing methods, charging process, charge rate, discharge rate, battery age, temperature, and number of pigons on the Statue's around Stuttgart at any given moment…Porsche has not disclosed _ANY_ of these facts about their particular combination of LiON cell chemistry or it's expected life time full charge cycles - with out this information there is no way for anyone outside of Porsche to know/estimate the actual impact of any given charging cycle from A% to B%…these sorts of facts are closely guarded industry secrets and one of the few remaining "differences" between EV vendors and company confidential.

the 100,000 miles warranty is the closest we get to some sort of "insight" into Porsche's confidence in battery longevity. Taycan is anywere from a 2.5 mile/kWh to 3.2 mile/kWh vehicle - so given 100,00 miles we can calculate the amount of kWh's "run through" the battery for 100,000 miles…

100,000 miles / 2.5 miles = 40,000 kWh's
100,000 miles / 3.2 miles = 31,250 kWh's

this tells me that Porsche has confidence that their battery chemistry will not fail/fall-below warranty standards for at least 45,000 kWh's of power "run through" the battery.

Daily driving is typically 60 miles or less - and most cars are driven 5 days a week 42 weeks year - that's a fractional charge cycle 210 times a year (assuming the car is not in fact driven _EVERY_ day).

60 miles of driving = 24 to 18 kWh for the daily charge cycle…let's call it 22 kwh on average for the daily charge…

45,000 kWh / 22 kWh = 2045 "dailiy charge cycles"
2045 daily charge cycles / 210 charge cycles a year = 9.7 years expected life of the battery

I think we'll all be good/fine

the only fact's I've found/seen regarding battery life management and longevity in 12+ years of EV driving are:

• letting the battery get close to zero is "hard" on the battery - the closer to zero% you are the harder it is on the charge cycle count - the exact impact of getting to 1% vs. 4% (as an example) is a giant SWAG…and hard to quantify
• charging the battery to 100% and letting it "sit there" is hard on the LiON cells - but charging to 100% and then promptly discharging the battery (by driving it) it quite a bit "less hard" on the battery - the exact amount of "hard" is another SWAG that is hard to find anyone to quantify
• fast charging (50-70 kW or more charge rate) is "harder" on the battery than slower charging - the exact impact SWAG's are more definative in this space, and Porsche itself even indirectly communicates this with an option to limit fast charging to 200 kW max rate…
  • this is as close as Porsche has come to "documenting" their battery life expectations and impact of charging on battery life - and they are still "vauge" as to the expected improvement in limiting fast charging.
  • less fast charging is good for the battery, more fast charging is "worse" for the battery - again the exact differences and expected "impact" would be a SWAG - and even that SWAG is confidential

Porsche can not deny a warranty claim even if you fast charged every day for 8 years/100,000 miles - they place no such limits on the warranty…

so reading between the lines - if you charge 45,000 kWh's @ 270 kW charge rate for the entire 45,000 kWh's and the battery "fails" or falls below warranty specifications Porsche is on the hook to fix/repair/replace your Taycan battery. After 45,000 kWh's (which is well over 100,000 miles driven) you're on your own for the battery.

so me thinks…charging 20'ish kWh's over night @ 9.6 kW charge rate 210 times years and occasionally more (60-70 kWh's) is probably statistical noise in the grand scheme of things - and if your battery "fails" there was nothing _YOU_ did to cause that - it just happens that your battery was one of the statistically expected failures foreseen by the internal, secret, confidential SWAGs Porsche used to design the vehicle, it charging systems, it's charging software and part of the agreements it has with it's LiON cell providers.

use the car
charge the car
keep it ready to be used
enjoy driving it
the battery is outside of your control
porsche is 100% in control of the battery - you are not

in my opinion one of the small joy's of owning an EV - is getting home - plugging it in - and knowing that the car will be "fully" charged (85% most of the time) and ready next time I get into the vehicle - having the "ready" at all times and at it's ideal/common max range is what makes EV's better than gasoline vehicles, because I rarely have to worry about charging the car when I'm driving it - cause it's always "full" when it get into it - that means I don't worry about when to plug it in - I always plug it in and I always charge it so that it's ready for me next time my butt is in the seat.

and let the warranty given you the confidence to not sweat the battery - because at the end of the day there 100% nothing you can do - you were never in control of it anyways - and it's going to do what it's going to do irregardless of your actions (short of charging from 1% to 100% @ 270 kW every day) - anything less than that and you're not the reason for any issue.

enjoy the car, don't worry about it - it's why you went with a world class company that stands behind their products (or at least typically do so).

 

[slothinker]

Depending on charging power, once you reach 80% it's downhill from there. Are you willing to waste the double or triple of time to get those extra 15% and also hog up the charger station for the other users? Chargers in Europe also cost per minute so a significant cost increase for those 15%.

On a trip, I usually charge up to whatever I need to get to my destination comfortably or 85%

I do admit that yesterday I put the car on charge at 150kW and went to the supermarket. When I returned the car was at 100%. Wasn't on purpose. Just couldn't decide on the milk brand ?

I'd forgotten about the charging slow down above 85%. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[daveo4EV]

https://insideevs.com/news/764150/e...pKofa0kPoDkujgfcxkl5mjjoY7I83dFfLgKdr8.VCGm8F

must read if you're concerned about battery life - my main take away - use/drive your car and don't sweat the battery it's going to be fine.

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