GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

I was a bit too young for the VHS vs Betamax war. I was not in the middle of (but fairly close to) the HD-DVD - BluRay war. This feels different, though - there's the small matter of a $100k+ investment on what increasingly appears to be the wrong charging format. Given how EA was founded (and funded), I can very easily see them folding in 1-2 years, and Porsche won't have any obligation to support Tesla DC charging.

the more I think about this - everyone is getting this really really wrong (not calling you out @WasserGKuehlt I've seen lots of other doing this in the media)

every on thinks this is like VHS vs. Betamax - it's not - it's more like USB-C vs USB-A…this can all be handled with adatpters and software and no one need be left out in the cold - and just like some computer no longer ship with _ANY_ USB-A ports - it doesn't matter - cause it's easy to get it connected to all your legacy stuff…

sure adatper suck - but no one is being left "behind" and the plan to fix all this is reasonably straight forward…

CCS is a deeply flawed _PHYSICAL_ design - just like USB-A connectors have their pros/cons - but you can move to the new connector styles but still be a USB-A compatible computer/device…

the same will happen here - with a CCS/NACS adatper - EA does not need to change ANYTHING and it will just work…

we need to separate the electrical protocols from the physical plug…we will still have two charging standards Superchargers vs. CCS - but we'll have a better connector that breaks less often and can be handled by humans…

this is USB-A vs. USB-C - not VHS vs. Betamax…

USB-C is a better physical connector and that why even porsche includes it in all their modern vehicle's

they should eventually do the same for NACS.

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[daveo4EV]

I meant for current suckersexisting customers. It's not up to Porsche alone to support DC charging at a non-CCS station. Maybe there is an incentive for Tesla (to gain the likes of me as customers), but, unless I'm mistaken, both sides would need to make changes - if only in protocol - to allow my obsolete-any-day-now car to charge from a NACS station. That is, it's not just the adapter for high-speed charging.

no change required - your 2020 Taycan can already charge at both AC NCAS stations (TeslaTap) and Superchargers where there is a magic dock (adatper) no change required to your existing vehicle...

this is not a lot of work or actually a serious compatibility problem - it's a physical change as to what type of connector we're going o have in North America - and CCS sucks.

but as of today your 2020 Taycan _ALREADY_ works at Superchargers if the adapter is available (which it is at select sites already today).

 

[daveo4EV]

anyone who's used a TeslaTap has already experience being compatible with an NACS Tesla Charger (for AC charging)

we can expect a similar experience and compatibility with a Supercharger NACS/CCS adatper - TeslaTap for supercharger's if you will…

it will just work once the business agreements are worked out - no change to your Taycan required if the adapter is available…

if you don't believe me you can go to any of the 12 existing Supercharger sites with Magicdocks and see for yourself (2 in California, 10 in New York).

it just "works" once you get the Tesla app setup (no real difference vs. using the EA app to start a session).

 

[tchavei]

no change required - your 2020 Taycan can already charge at both AC NCAS stations (TeslaTap) and Superchargers where there is a magic dock (adatper) no change required to your existing vehicle...

this is not a lot of work or actually a serious compatibility problem - it's a physical change as to what type of connector we're going o have in North America - and CCS sucks.

but as of today your 2020 Taycan _ALREADY_ works at Superchargers if the adapter is available (which it is at select sites already today).

I think that what we mean is that with nacs adoption over there, magic docks will have no incentive to spread further and legacy cars will have to get adaptors themselves to operate (if tesla allows it)

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

no change required - your 2020 Taycan can already charge at both AC NCAS stations (TeslaTap) and Superchargers where there is a magic dock (adatper) no change required to your existing vehicle...

this is not a lot of work or actually a serious compatibility problem - it's a physical change as to what type of connector we're going o have in North America - and CCS sucks.

but as of today your 2020 Taycan _ALREADY_ works at Superchargers if the adapter is available (which it is at select sites already today).

@daveo4EV I do get the 'physical' vs 'protocol' aspect, and I have 0 worries about slow/AC/L2 charging. As you well know, the Superchargers with CCS plugs are few (and far from me) - and now in the light of the Ford and GM announcements, Tesla has almost 0 incentive to retrofit magic docks to any other SC stations. (Why would they?)

So - again, unless I'm missing something - my hopes for fast charging on the road rest on:
- the ability of ChargePoint, EVGo, EA to stay in business
- Porsche's and Tesla's willingness to work with each other on protocol changes integration (and Porsche to retrofit them to current/sold cars)
- fed gov't wading in to prop CCS (not that I'm advocating for that)

(a few minor edits for clarity)

 

[daveo4EV]

I think that what we mean is that with nacs adoption over there, magic docks will have no incentive to spread further and legacy cars will have to get adaptors themselves to operate (if tesla allows it)

just I agree and prefer this - cause then I don't have to wait for Tesla to retrofit all the stations - give me a $200 adapter and I'm good to go!!!

it will be the reverse of this existing $175 adatper - this adapter let's NACS cars (Teslas) use CCS - we need the reverse - letting CCS cars use NACS fast chargers (Superchargers) - Both Ford and GM have said they will provide this adapter to existing customers…so VW/Audi/Porsche can do the same.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

TeslaTap for Superchargers - $200 and we'll all be good.

 

[daveo4EV]

@daveo4EV I do get the 'physical' vs 'protocol' aspect, and I have 0 worries about slow/AC/L2 charging. As you well know, the Superchargers with CCS plugs are few (and far from me) - and now in the light of the Ford and GM announcements, Tesla has almost 0 incentive to retrofit magic docks to any other SC stations. (Why would they?)

So - again, unless I'm missing something - my hopes for fast charging on the road rest on:
- the ability of ChargePoint, EVGo, EA to stay in business
- Porsche's and Tesla's willingness to work with each other on protocol changes (and Porsche to retrofit them to current/sold cars)
- fed gov't wading in to prop CCS (not that I'm advocating for that)

given that it already works with existing magic docks it appears existing vendors don't need to do a lot

I 100% agree that the adapter needs to be decoupled and available separately - but this is exactly what Ford and GM are advocating/doing for existing customers - nothing prevents other vendors from taking the same approach…

and as far as the CCS network being viable - I don't think the connector shape makes or breaks the business case - if it wasn't viable with CCS it's not viable with NACS or vice versa…what is clear to me is so far in North America only _ONE_ charging network seems to care as to if they can actually charge your car when you pull into a charging site…

but yeah this is shaking things up…we'll see where this goes - but at least we'll be moving forward with a physical plug design that doesn't break by design.

and the top 3 EV vendors in North America all shipping their EV's (which are growing population) with NACS ports native in 2025 and beyond - well if that's not enough to make their business viable I'm not sure what is…

a change like this is better now than later…and the viability was never about the charging standard - it's about if we're going to make a go of public charging infrastructure - Tesla's seems to work, and the other guys well no so much - so I'm not sure CCS was helping them and I'm not sure keeping CCS makes a difference, they seem deeply uninterested in actually having something that works, vs. just listing sites they have installed but are offline most of the time.

 

[Deleted member 6348]

There will be no further rollout of Magic Dock. It's a dead end.

To get use of the Supercharger network, both Ford and GM had to commit to using the NACS port going forward. Tesla is not going to open the Superchargers to every automaker -- to get access, they have to play ball. Tesla will simply get enough automakers onboard to assert that they're the charging standard to get Inflation Reduction Act dollars to further build out the Supercharger network.

Of course, the big hammer to drop will be Hyundai/Kia. If they get onboard, CCS is going the way of CHAdeMO in the United States.

 

[Deleted member 6348]

given that it already works with existing magic docks it appears existing vendors don't need to do a lot

I 100% agree that the adapter needs to be decoupled and available separately - but this is exactly what Ford and GM are advocating/doing for existing customers - nothing prevents other vendors from taking the same approach…

and as far as the CCS network being viable - I don't think the connector shape makes or breaks the business case - if it wasn't viable with CCS it's not viable with NACS or vice versa…what is clear to me is so far in North America only _ONE_ charging network seems to care as to if they can actually charge your car when you pull into a charging site…

but yeah this is shaking things up…we'll see where this goes - but at least we'll be moving forward with a physical plug design that doesn't break by design.

and the top 3 EV vendors in North America all shipping their EV's (which are growing population) with NACS ports native in 2025 and beyond - well if that's not enough to make their business viable I'm not sure what is…

a change like this is better now than later…and the viability was never about the charging standard - it's about if we're going to make a go of public charging infrastructure - Tesla's seems to work, and the other guys well no so much - so I'm not sure CCS was helping them and I'm not sure keeping CCS makes a difference, they seem deeply uninterested in actually having something that works, vs. just listing sites they have installed but are offline most of the time.

The Ford Tesla agreement dictated the use of Plug & Charge via FordPass. Tesla wants everyone to Plug & Charge. So, to play ball, automakers have to truly support their standard. This isn't going to be a matter of buying an adapter and using the app.

Magic Dock is dead.

 

[daveo4EV]

it must have KILLED both Ford and GM to negotiate with Tesla on this front…absolutely killed them…

this tells me more about EA and CCS than we will ever know

the fact that they are making this change - says that ChargePoint/EA/Other's SUCK, and will continue to suck and will impact EV's negatively

this change is not being done lightly - and speaks VOLUMES about how bad CCS probably really is behind the scenes…cause these vendors do not up end their supply chain and negotiate with competitors if they think their current approach can work…

CCS is doomed, and now industry insiders are subtly admitting that - otherwise these announcements would not be happening…

think about it - they know more than we know, suffer the same thing, have access to inside information, and work directly with EA and others…and they've given up and negotiated with the mad-man in Texas/California who's outselling their cars across the board…

what do they know that we don't? and why did that knowledge drive them this direction?

read the room - it wasn't ever going to work - have to do something different - pivot to the stuff that works.

 

[daveo4EV]

The Ford Tesla agreement dictated the use of Plug & Charge via FordPass. Tesla wants everyone to Plug & Charge. So, to play ball, automakers have to truly support their standard. This isn't going to be a matter of buying an adapter and using the app.

Magic Dock is dead.

we don't know what is required - it would be simple to have. Bring you own adatper and use the Tesla app to start the charging session at various sties - it's a matter of if VW/Audi/Porsche want to tell their customers to install a Tesla app to start a charging session…

and also plug&charge as implemented by the existing guys SUCKS- in North American it can only support EA by design and isn't multi-vendor friendly and will require massive protocol changes and new vehicle software to be multi vendor …so it wasn't that good to begin with.

 

[tchavei]

just I agree and prefer this - cause then I don't have to wait for Tesla to retrofit all the stations - give me a $200 adapter and I'm good to go!!!

it will be the reverse of this existing $180 adatper - this adapter let's NACS cars (Teslas) use CCS - we need the reverse - letting CCS cars use NACS fast chargers (Superchargers) - Both Ford and GM have said they will provide this adapter to existing customers…so VW/Audi/Porsche can do the same.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

TeslaTap for Superchargers - $200 and we'll all be good.

At 270kw?

It's confusing to me tbh. How can a tiny plug like that work and not need liquid cooling like CCS2 350kW stations do for example.

Our (EU) chargers usually have 3 plugs.

1 Mennekes plug for AC charging (I've seen up to 43kW AC albeit our Taycans can only handle 11 or 22kW)

1 CCS2 plug (which is a Mennekes + 2 DC pins) that currently can go up to 350kW

1 CHAdeMO plug (japanese cars use that mostly). I've seen some with 100kW but mostly 50kW

I think CCS2 is to stay here in Europe as the standard was set early on for good or bad.

I did notice that the more higher powered stations usually have an arm that holds the cable suspended and the user (me) doesn't have to make any force to put the plug in. Really don't see the issue on this side of the world. I don't know.

Like I said. It's confusing to me.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

it must have KILLED both Ford and GM to negotiate with Tesla on this front…absolutely killed them…

Ack.

the fact that they are making this change - says that ChargePoint/EA/Other's SUCK, and will continue to suck and will impact EV's negatively

this change is not being done lightly - and speaks VOLUMES about how bad CCS probably really is behind the scenes…cause these vendors do not up end their supply chain and negotiate with competitors if they think their current approach can work…

2 points:
- density/ubiquity: Ford/GM need to bring their EVs to not-Coast-states, and EA has a long way to get there
- it's hard to argue that the physical format of the plug is what causes the unreliability of the CCS chargers. I mean, I've used ~20 and only saw 1 cracked plug (outer shell) - and it was working. ChargePoint doesn't seem to have the same availability issues that EA has, and so it's not a systemic problem that somehow can't be fixed.

Meaning that Ford's decision was one more based on sales and speed of adoption, rather than reliability metrics. Who's to say that EA can't get their shit together by 2025?

 

[daveo4EV]

At 270kw?

It's confusing to me tbh. How can a tiny plug like that work and not need liquid cooling like CCS2 350kW stations do for example.

Our (EU) chargers usually have 3 plugs.

1 Mennekes plug for AC charging (I've seen up to 43kW AC albeit our Taycans can only handle 11 or 22kW)

1 CCS2 plug (which is a Mennekes + 2 DC pins) that currently can go up to 350kW

1 CHAdeMO plug (japanese cars use that mostly). I've seen some with 100kW but mostly 50kW

I think CCS2 is to stay here in Europe as the standard was set early on for good or bad.

I did notice that the more higher powered stations usually have an arm that holds the cable suspended and the user (me) doesn't have to make any force to put the plug in. Really don't see the issue on this side of the world. I don't know.

Like I said. It's confusing to me.

the cables need to be cooled and are for 800V and 400V high speed connections - the distance of the connector is not the issue…

and 800V is less current so less heat - if a connector can handle 400V/200+kW (which superchargers have proven they can cause existing V3 superchargers do 200 kW) then they can handle 270 kW@800V which will be less heat and less current - and the connector is fine for this.

you have DC Charger ---> Cable(cooled) ---> Connector ---> in-Vehicle-wire…

the connector at 800V is _NOT_ the issue and at the moment it's fine for 400V/250 kW - so 800V/270 across the same connector is no problem.

 

[daveo4EV]

Ack.



2 points:
- density/ubiquity: Ford/GM need to bring their EVs to not-Coast-states, and EA has a long way to get there
- it's hard to argue that the physical format of the plug is what causes the unreliability of the CCS chargers. I mean, I've used ~20 and only saw 1 cracked plug (outer shell) - and it was working. ChargePoint doesn't seem to have the same availability issues that EA has, and so it's not a systemic problem that somehow can't be fixed.

Meaning that Ford's decision was one more based on sales and speed of adoption, rather than reliability metrics. Who's to say that EA can't get their shit together by 2025?

I lack confidence in EA…

and Ford CEO mentioned CCS physical plug design and it's fragility as one of the reasons for the move - watch the interview.

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