GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

Ack.



2 points:
- density/ubiquity: Ford/GM need to bring their EVs to not-Coast-states, and EA has a long way to get there
- it's hard to argue that the physical format of the plug is what causes the unreliability of the CCS chargers. I mean, I've used ~20 and only saw 1 cracked plug (outer shell) - and it was working. ChargePoint doesn't seem to have the same availability issues that EA has, and so it's not a systemic problem that somehow can't be fixed.

Meaning that Ford's decision was one more based on sales and speed of adoption, rather than reliability metrics. Who's to say that EA can't get their shit together by 2025?

and if they can make their stations viable they can do so with NACS plugs/CCS plugs- they already have Chademo and CCS - they can add NACS or simply require the adapter (which exists) for NACS vehicles.

there are two Model Y's in my family (son & daughter) and they both have the CCS adapter…$175 - done - less than one hour labor at my local porsche service center and they can access the entire power and awesome ness of the North American CCS network.

if they can make their stations reliable and functional there are existing mechanisms you can continue to use their stations and services.

if you have a NACS based Macan EV - $175 buys you a CCS adapter (if Porsche doesn't include it) and boom you can continue to use EA stations in all their glory.

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[WasserGKuehlt]

and Ford CEO mentioned CCS physical plug design and it's fragility as one of the reasons for the move - watch the interview.

Tried to, but it features Musk ?.

 

[tchavei]

I hope it goes well for you guys.

 

[daveo4EV]

I hope it goes well for you guys.

superchargers that are open in Europe seem to be functioning pretty well and other networks also work - so it's not like this is a whole new world - the supercharger roll out in Europe has been pretty seamless and more and more sites available every month - and people then simply choose which network they want to do business with or have to do business with based on availability and circumstance…

it was never viable for these two networks to be separate - I've always said that…there had to be interoperability for this whole EV thing to work - Ford and GM have just laid some ground work for how the interoperability is going to happen going forward…

 

[daveo4EV]

Tried to, but it features Musk ?.

my God Musk is a terrible speaker - I hate watching him - honestly I do. I get it.

but ultimately we can separate the good ideas and technology progress from the flawed humans the push them…I have a lot of experience with this in my past career - I'm focusing on the pure technical fact that NACS does not completely suck as a design - this is a win going forward, but unfortunately carry's "musk" with it - but when I'm charging somewhere with 64 stalls and it actually works I'll credit Musk that his "sh*t" works, while the EA station across the street with 3 stalls has 2 'offline' for no known reason…and I'll shake my head and {sigh} as I drive past the EA station in my Taycan charged to 92% SOC by a functional supercharger site while EA couldn't keep their POS (Point of Sale) system online for more than few minutes at a time…or even know their station was offline - or realize that the 75 year old grandmother in her Macan EV doesn't have the physical dexterity to actually handle the CCS cable to insert it into the CCS charge port…but if she did the latch would be broken and the session wouldn't start anyways - but it would take her 20-40 minutes on the phone with an oh so polite EA CS representative that will eventually tell her that rebooting the stations doesn't seem to be fixing the problem so they will note a trouble ticket but have no suggestion as to how she should now charge her Macan which is at 12% battery…and so she's stranded with no way to charge her vehicle because EA sucks.

and the "funny" in the paragraph above is that we all know it's true - and yet seem to want to "stick with it" rather than give Musk "the win" in this case…

I still say "read the room" - it speaks volumes that it came to this with Ford & GM - they had no choice, which honestly means - we have no choice - the question for this Forum is will Porsche realize they have no choice or bury their heads in the sand on this topic.

 

[laua]

We have a lot of Americans here but curious what the experience is in Europe? Isn’t CCS the standard over there? What makes their network tick vs the US? Is it the actual technology? Or is EA just poorly managed?

 

[tchavei]

superchargers that are open in Europe seem to be functioning pretty well and other networks also work - so it's not like this is a whole new world - the supercharger roll out in Europe has been pretty seamless and more and more sites available every month - and people then simply choose which network they want to do business with or have to do business with based on availability and circumstance…

it was never viable for these two networks to be separate - I've always said that…there had to be interoperability for this whole EV thing to work - Ford and GM have just laid some ground work for how the interoperability is going to happen going forward…

But Tesla uses CCS2 in Europe so physically there never was an issue.

 

[daveo4EV]

We have a lot of Americans here but curious what the experience is in Europe? Isn’t CCS the standard over there? What makes their network tick vs the US? Is it the actual technology? Or is EA just poorly managed?

poorly managed…the connector is not the entire issue - and CCS as a electrical charging standard is just fine and will remain just fine - we just need to get a better plug design in North America (the Euro standard would've also been fine) - but regardless of the physical plug or standard - EA/ChargePoint/EVGo just don't seem to be viable for what ever reason in North America…and yet the Supercharger network is thriving and has excellent reliability and accessibility…

Europe charging network is pretty good, Supercharging is pretty good, and yet non Tesla networks in the US suck…why? management/business process/poor focus.

 

[daveo4EV]

But Tesla uses CCS2 in Europe so physically there never was an issue.

but access was an issue - so the same plug standard accomplished little until Tesla decided to open the network to non-Tesla's - and only recently has Tesla "allowed" non-Tesla's to charge at their sites - and now that it's opening up I think it's a good thing - it also shows that the cars are already "mostly" compatible

so once we get the "plug situation/adapter" situation settled Tesla should open their network to non-Tesla's in North America also…it's what has to happen if this whole EV thing is going to actually move forward.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

but ultimately we can separate the good ideas and technology progress from the flawed humans the push them…[...] unfortunately carry's "musk" with it - but when I'm charging somewhere with 64 stalls and it actually works I'll credit Musk that his "sh*t" works

I have absolutely no problem with what some of the companies helmed by Musk have achieved/provided. I wouldn't personally buy a Tesla (car), but I do admire their technological and design acumen. I would absolutely use a Tesla charging station - whether at home or on the road.

I still say "read the room" - it speaks volumes that it came to this with Ford & GM - they had no choice, which honestly means - we have no choice - the question for this Forum is will Porsche realize they have no choice or bury their heads in the sand on this topic.

Not to reset this conversation back to square 0, but this is my conundrum - I do get why everyone in this picture have made their decisions. I'm a bit frustrated and more than a bit uncertain on whether Porsche will take care of their current customers/sold cars. You can go and buy today almost any part for almost any of the 911s made in the past 60 years - they'll even give you the catalog (Originale) for free. That was a conscious decision, and I'm too skeptical to see the same support being extended to their "consumable"-type cars - ie the SUV or sedan lines.

I guess we'll see. ?‍

 

[daveo4EV]

I have absolutely no problem with what some of the companies helmed by Musk have achieved/provided. I wouldn't personally buy a Tesla (car), but I do admire their technological and design acumen. I would absolutely use a Tesla charging station - whether at home or on the road.


Not to reset this conversation back to square 0, but this is my conundrum - I do get why everyone in this picture have made their decisions. I'm a bit frustrated and more than a bit uncertain on whether Porsche will take care of their current customers/sold cars. You can go and buy today almost any part for almost any of the 911s made in the past 60 years - they'll even give you the catalog (Originale) for free. That was a conscious decision, and I'm too skeptical to see the same support being extended to their "consumable"-type cars - ie the SUV or sedan lines.

I guess we'll see. ?‍

I think even Porsche will have to follow along here - with at least an adapter (native NACS port is not required) - but I agree until they answer it's a bit unsettling - I think the subtext here is we all know Porsche can be a bit "pig headed" and we're worried they will think they can ignore this - and we kinda know they can't - but we also know Porsche doesn't like having terms dictated to them- and this is pretty much having terms dictated to Porsche...

I think ultimately we'll get access to the network, an adapter will be made available and it will be fine - and as I've said I think NACS native port is less critical than network access w/wo adapter…

but I share your trepidation that Porsche will decide to continue to push a bad position until they are literally forced to make a change…

so if I may - i think that's your issue - that Porsche probably is going to sit on this decision for a while and let us all sweat…and we lack confidence that they "can read the room" - or that they will quickly announce anything in this space. There is some chess being played here - and I'm not sure what game Porsche want's to play or what they end game is…and we'll be brought along for the ride or have to jump ship.

if Porsche doesn't play ball here and get us access to supercharging - we'll all be kinda 2nd class citizens in the EV world, and that's not a good look for us as customers, or the brand which we all love...and yet for our Brand to "win" we are now being told we have to give Elon 'the win' - and that's just not what we do here...

I agree - it's come to this, and next moves are consequential…

Your move Porsche, but I'm not buying any more EV's in North america without access to the Supercharger network (along with others) - so yeah - what will we do if Porsche takes forever/never to settle this for us - and do I buy my 2025 Taycan refresh with out an answer to this question?

this also potentially affects the used car value of all our Taycans if not access is provided and other EV's have this access…

Ford and GM just changes the after market value of my 2020 Taycan - yeah I don't feel good about that.

yeah consequences…

 

[daveo4EV]

bad design loses in the end (normally) - CCS was design by committee from the start and lacked any compelling form follows function or an understanding of reliability, robustness, and ergonomics…I said over a year ago this physical plug design should be abandoned

there is no question in my mind as to what the right thing to do is moving forward.

physically the CCS design is just horrible.

here is a photo comparing the two standards - both of which can charge at over 250 kW…one is a model of design (something all Porsche customers value and understand) and one is just bad/ugly…

 

[nickmdp]

@daveo4EV, you don't have any obvious bad points here, but you gotta go for a drive or something between posts, you're like half the comments in the thread right now.

In all seriousness, I'm glad we're getting closer to the day where we can no longer worry about cars having different charging standards. It seems like only a matter of time before all non-VWAG manufacturers hop on the NACS wagon, and once that's the case EA is basically forced to adopt NACS, and bring the rest of VWAG with it.

The bad news is that it gives Tesla less incentive to install magic docks everywhere (though maybe you could argue that they'll need more because people will forget their adapters or they'll break), but the good news is that Tesla feels confident enough that they can support all Ford/GM cars on their network (and presumably all CCS cars) with just a simple adapter, so VWAG just needs to be able to swallow their pride and make an agreement with Tesla.

Saying I'm optimistic about what's coming in the next 12-18 months is probably an exaggeration, but worst case scenario I take a bit more of a loss in a few years when I buy something new if VW somehow hasn't agreed to do NACS adapters, and I'll purchase something that will.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

In all seriousness, I'm glad we're getting closer to the day where we can no longer worry about cars having different charging standards. It seems like only a matter of time before all non-VWAG manufacturers hop on the NACS wagon, and once that's the case EA is basically forced to adopt NACS, and bring the rest of VWAG with it.

(just trying to catch up with Dave while he's out for a drive - good one ? )

EA was a Dieselgate settlement. I'm cynical enough to see them folding - I doubt they're a profitable business, the money was spent/civic duty acquitted, so why TF would they carry on "in the context of the greater economical climate"?

This is where the fed gov't comes in - they can try and prop up CCS, they can say "both can play", or they can, indeed, carrot+stick EA into adopting NACS. I've no idea how much it would cost to retrofit the 3.5k EA chargers to be NACS-capable, but it's well within the IRA budget. (Which, of course, was meant to be spent on new capacity.)

 

[nickmdp]

(just trying to catch up with Dave while he's out for a drive - good one ? )

EA was a Dieselgate settlement. I'm cynical enough to see them folding - I doubt they're a profitable business, the money was spent/civic duty acquitted, so why TF would they carry on "in the context of the greater economical climate"?

This is where the fed gov't comes in - they can try and prop up CCS, they can say "both can play", or they can, indeed, carrot+stick EA into adopting NACS. I've no idea how much it would cost to retrofit the 3.5k EA chargers to be NACS-capable, but it's well within the IRA budget. (Which, of course, was meant to be spent on new capacity.)

Even if VW didn't want to continue running EA, someone would surely buy them, if only for the fact that they have hundreds of charging stations that have permits and utilities run to them. A retrofit probably wouldn't be cheap, but EVgo or ChargePoint would chomping at the bit to expand their networks even if they had to take out a massive loan to do so.

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