Hybrid Alternative to all electric

[Scandinavian]

Great discussion with some very good points. The 'European experience' with charging stations evidently as common as gas stations will be difficult to reproduce here. I think it is similar to trains - incredible infrastructure in Europe, not so great here. I hope there will be a real incentive and initiative to develop and grow the charging infrastructure here, but we'll need to wait and see. Any long trips that we take will be with my wife's 450e GLE. Right now, longer trips are 1-2 hrs additional time with my car due because the entire trip is planned around charging stations, not simply the quickest route to the destination. (In 2021 I drove from Cincinnati to the Chesapeak Bay and had to drive around the entire state of West Virginia because there were NO HIGH POWER CHARGING STATIONS IN THE ENTIRE STATE)

Another point I'd like to throw out there is our overall grid capacity. There is an 18 month lead time on industrial generators because everyone is trying to increase their capacity. The AI revolution is projected to consume massive amounts of electricity, and I question whether our infrastructure will support significant increases in EV's and their charging stations.

Finally, I love my car, and intend to continue driving it until my 7yr, 100K warrantee expires.

I also love my Taycan when it is working as it should. It has had many issues, niggles and problems, but still I can not part with it. I have not found anything that comes close to the driving feel with any other EV. It is said that it drives like a 911, except you feel the weight on serpentine roads in the alps.

I have also been toying with the idea of a hybrid for long trips. Not that it in any way is needed for that purpose since our charging network is very good in Europe. I have probably done 50.000 km on long trips and only once or twice have had to wait for chargers to be free. And very few have been broken, luckily enough.

I like the fact that the new generation PHEV will have a good range for city driving. Clean and quiet for driving in traffic. BUT I miss the sound of my BMW V8 in the M5.

BUT THERE IS HOPE!!! . M5 will come this year with a plug in hybrid, but with a great V8. I believe the same powertrain as in the BMW XM? Rumoured to have some massive hp (800??) combined. For us here in France that could mean we can avoid the horrendous MALUS and registration fees, which are CO2 related. At present a M car will attract a massive 60.000 Euro in Malus plus some 10.000 Euro for registration!

Only drawback now seems that the new M5 will be a very heavy car (2400kg? Is rumoured). I think that might be BMW’s swansong before all M cars will be EV’s???

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[D00notD00d]

I have been seeing the recent reviews on the new Turbo e-hybrid Cayenne with the updated interior and larger battery and honestly I am intrigued as well, so you are are not alone @Vim Schrotnock

My recent 850 mile/1360km run from Scottsdale to Denver took 16 and a half hours in the Taycan since it was cooler temp, crappy snowy weather conditions, and I had the big heavy mt. bike on the back, so efficiency was abysmal. I had absolutely no issues charging at the six Electrify America chargers I needed to use on the drive back, but if I had been in the Cayenne it would have taken me 10 hours.

That kind of knowledge hurts, a lot.

The flip side of that coin is vehicle looks. I still love walking into my garage and seeing my CT4S. I would not have that same feeling walking into the garage and seeing a Cayenne.

The real world range even for the latest Cayenne hybrid isn’t enough - 30 something miles?
For long trips I have a 600+ mile range Cayenne diesel, the last one to be registered in the UK. The dash now looks dated, but the exterior isn’t different enough to warrant a change. It has a massive spec and was bought new with a massive discount.
For larger cars, only Mercedes PHEVs with their 60 mile range currently seem a realistic prospect, especially when combined with the range of their diesel engines.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

@Vim Schrotnock Re: grid capacity and increases consumption. According to this, US total consumption is at 3.9TWh, vs 4.23TWh production. Domestic consumption is at 1.5TWh, and the largest of all sectors. I can’t find it right now, but Car and Driver published recently a chart with the EV/transportation part of that consumption. The conclusion was that a much larger increase in EV adoption will represent half a drop in a bucket overall.

Re: overall trip duration EV vs ICE: not assuming the worst case scenario (queues, broken chargers or less than half charging speed), I find that the EV delay is about 1hr/500miles. Not insignificant, but not something I would consider a deal breaker (or even a point worth mentioning, but that’s personal). That should be, though, corrected with the time saved with destination charging, or, if you’re into funny math, the total time saved “refueling” an EV at home vs an ICE at the gas station.

The CT is ugly. ?

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[WuffvonTrips]

The real world range even for the latest Cayenne hybrid isn’t enough - 30 something miles?

Depends on individual use case- apparently average UK commute is 20 miles. The longer the trip, the more likely that the extra power of the ICE will be desirable for part of the way, otherwise it's a car that's as heavy as an EV with only around a third of its power. A hybrid that's not required to use its ICE is an inefficient solution.

 

[kempez]

Depends on individual use case- apparently average UK commute is 20 miles. The longer the trip, the more likely that the extra power of the ICE will be desirable for part of the way, otherwise it's a car that's as heavy as an EV with only around a third of its power. A hybrid that's not required to use its ICE is an inefficient solution.

The thing I get is that yes the PHEV is great for short trips. But if you do say, 3-4 short trips in a day, you run out of the EV very quickly. Self-charging also uses an absolute shed-load of fuel and negates the point of it being a PHEV. So you are better off with a good efficient ICE or you get an EV and compromise when you need to do really long trips - either rent an ICE or hopefully you can plan the trip properly and have a destination with a charger.

 

[f1eng]

Maybe the only reasonable hybrid still remains the Toyota Prius. Very good car for taxi drivers. However I rather walking or get the bus than driving a Prius.

I was involved in the original calculations and starting the Williams GPE CVT transmission project in the mid 1980s. It was clearly better than a fixed ratio gearbox but the mechanical implementation was difficult and complex to get working, and it got banned before it raced anyway.

I was back at Williams as a consultant when the Prius with E-CVT gearbox was announced and because I was intrigued by it I bought one.
I had been driving big V8s for decades and expected not to like it and sell it after evaluating how they had implemented the CVT.

Anyway, I liked it as an every day car and that one is still being used by my daughter after 19 years, still with its original traction battery.

We have subsequently had at least one ever since, I can see people concerned by their image not wanting one given the bollox in the motoring press but they have sadly stopped importing it into the UK anyway because everybody wants a SUV or crossover (shows how technically ignorant the UK car buyer is, but hey).

Obviously my Taycan or sports car are more fun to drive but there are roads around here where the Taycan is too wide to go as fast as the Prius and it is close to impossible to park in any car park so I am in the Prius often.

 

[e92er]

Absolutely love my GTS ST. Unfortunately we were spending a day last week in East TN with the kids going to various caves and such and there's no charging around. Tail of the Dragon was right there! But instead we took our X5M for the day so we wouldn't have to drive 45min out of the way through Chattanooga just to recharge. It's better then it was a few years ago, but the US is just too big to expect a charger at every exit. We're also looking at the Cayenne hybrid to replace the X5M.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

The thing I get is that yes the PHEV is great for short trips. But if you do say, 3-4 short trips in a day, you run out of the EV very quickly. Self-charging also uses an absolute shed-load of fuel and negates the point of it being a PHEV. So you are better off with a good efficient ICE or you get an EV and compromise when you need to do really long trips - either rent an ICE or hopefully you can plan the trip properly and have a destination with a charger.

I agree that self-charging isn't sensible unless the objective is to eliminate emissions at a later stage of the trip.
Even if the only battery input is from plug-in charging, there are still potentially significant fuel savings due to reduced miles running the ICE. But recuperation- even without plugging in- can make a worthwhile contribution, particularly when many short journeys- the taxi drivers around here seem to think so with their Priuses (which I doubt get plugged in regularly).

 

[kempez]

I agree that self-charging isn't sensible unless the objective is to eliminate emissions at a later stage of the trip.
Even if the only battery input is from plug-in charging, there are still potentially significant fuel savings due to reduced miles running the ICE. But recuperation- even without plugging in- can make a worthwhile contribution, particularly when many short journeys- the taxi drivers around here seem to think so with their Priuses (which I doubt get plugged in regularly).

Yes but I think it does seem to really strongly depend on the drivetrain design of the car. I know I'm a little unfortunate as IMO the T8 XC90 we have isn't great in terms of both regen etc, so I'm imagining a Prius is a lot more efficient. The ICE drive-train has to be efficient as well and also: a PHEV XC90 without plugging in is a really inefficient vehicle. We got it because my wife has always wanted one. I'd have gone a lot smaller/lighter in retrospect, but hindsight is wonderful thing!

The XC90 is still objectively an excellent car, but the PHEV element lets it down. 25 miles or so on electric in summer, 20 miles max in Winter in a large heavy vehicle. We live and learn!

 

[f1eng]

I agree that self-charging isn't sensible unless the objective is to eliminate emissions at a later stage of the trip.
Even if the only battery input is from plug-in charging, there are still potentially significant fuel savings due to reduced miles running the ICE. But recuperation- even without plugging in- can make a worthwhile contribution, particularly when many short journeys- the taxi drivers around here seem to think so with their Priuses (which I doubt get plugged in regularly).

My PHEV Prius has averaged around 150mpg in the last 30,000 miles because I do a lot of short journeys.
On a long cruise after the battery is exhausted it gives 60 to 70 mpg, depending on the type of road because it is aerodynamic, light and has fairly narrow tyres. It is about 700kg lighter than the Taycan and 600kg lighter than the Panamera PHEV.
I have done most longer journeys in the Taycan since I got it and the Prius used about half to ⅔ of a tank of petrol in the last year.

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

Have you test driven an eHybrid Panamera?

I had one as a loaner. Felt like driving an old people's home and the power train wasn't that nice.

Really?? I have not driven one, but that is really a disappointment if what you say is true - not sure what you meant by 'old people's home'. I loved driving my Panamera GTS for 100K miles, and I figured the hybrid would be the same/improved but with hybrid capabilities... ?

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

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Just joking about the CT!! It is the best looking CT around - maybe not as beautiful as the sedan...

 

[Murph7355]

Really?? I have not driven one, but that is really a disappointment if what you say is true - not sure what you meant by 'old people's home'. I loved driving my Panamera GTS for 100K miles, and I figured the hybrid would be the same/improved but with hybrid capabilities... ?

The powertrain seemed confused to me... Neither one thing nor the other.

And the general feel of the car felt very different to the Taycan... More Jag saloon in nature than Audi RS4/6.

From a Porsche line up perspective, that makes sense to me. But it's not the sort of car I want, and felt to me that the two models are as comparable as a Taycan is with a 911 (for example).

The Panamera felt cigar, brogues and a tweed jacket. The Taycan trainers, sweatshirt and Red Bull.

Caveat is I did not put significant miles on the Panamera....but I was very happy to get back into my own car (and won't be buying a Panamera for at least 25yrs ?).

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

The powertrain seemed confused to me... Neither one thing nor the other.

And the general feel of the car felt very different to the Taycan... More Jag saloon in nature than Audi RS4/6.

From a Porsche line up perspective, that makes sense to me. But it's not the sort of car I want, and felt to me that the two models are as comparable as a Taycan is with a 911 (for example).

The Panamera felt cigar, brogues and a tweed jacket. The Taycan trainers, sweatshirt and Red Bull.

Caveat is I did not put significant miles on the Panamera....but I was very happy to get back into my own car (and won't be buying a Panamera for at least 25yrs ?).

Very interesting - I can see your point. My wife's Mercedes is an SUV, so no 'sporty' driving at all. I can see your point about the powertrain 'confusion', because we drive the SUV in electric pretty much all the time, but we can do that because there is never any 'performance driving'. With the Panamera you want to get that performance on demand, and I can see how the hybrid would not be satisfying there.

I do have to say that the Taycan is the best combination of luxury and a high performance driving car I've ever experienced. A tap of the pedal, and it moves like no other car. I will reconsider my opinion on the hybrid Panamera... ?

 

[kempez]

My PHEV Prius has averaged around 150mpg in the last 30,000 miles because I do a lot of short journeys.
On a long cruise after the battery is exhausted it gives 60 to 70 mpg, depending on the type of road because it is aerodynamic, light and has fairly narrow tyres. It is about 700kg lighter than the Taycan and 600kg lighter than the Panamera PHEV.
I have done most longer journeys in the Taycan since I got it and the Prius used about half to ⅔ of a tank of petrol in the last year.

Do you plug it in a lot?

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