What happens after 8 year battery warranty?

[D00notD00d]

It is currently an imagined "problem" which may or may not exist in reality.
Hard to solve a problem until it becomes real and analysed.

The problem exists already. It currently affects Porsche E-Hybrids sold since 2010 which are now beyond the maker’s battery warranty and are being sold used with a Porsche Approved WarranTy with terms and conditions which do not clearly communicate what is normal wear tear and the scope of cover. The warranty is sold as “A new level of peace of mind … you can enjoy unlimited driving pleasure – and along with it a new level of peace of mind. Because no matter how often or how far you drive your Porsche, the Porsche Approved Warranty applies without any mileage limit during the contract term up to a vehicle age of 15 years – even without prior warranty coverage.

For pure Porsche BEVs, the problem already affects residual values - contrary to warranty marketing claims used on the Porsche site such as ‘Ensuring Porsche value retention and longevity’ and ‘Increase in value’.
I doubt whether any contested claim of the above would survive a ‘Unfair Trading’ legal challenge.

Expertise on the understanding of normal wear on ICE vehicles has had 150 years to develop. Currently HV expertise barely exists outside and is in some parts bespoke to manufacturers. Porsche has been selling cars with HV batteries for 14 years.

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[D00notD00d]

For info, in the UK, a reputable warranty company I've used before has just launced an EV plan.
See:
https://www.warrantywise.co.uk/downloads/
https://plan-books.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/2024/EV_Carwarrantyplan_V1.0_24082024.pdf

I've sent this to Porsche GB as part of my ongoing challenges to them on this subject and their stance on not publishing the battery state of health for used cars while also quoting new car ranges (for both E-Hybrids and Taycan).

As far as I know, this is the first after market warranty available in the UK. I've not gone through the detail. If anyone spots any flaws or omissions please pile in.

Edit: I tried to get a quote but the system ‘knows’ that there’s a manufacturer’s battery warranty in place so excludes that from cover.
A true cost including battery couldn’t therefore be obtained - but excluding the HV battery, the quote was c. £1700, vs c.£1,000 for the Porsche Approved warranty.
Other EV specific parts would be covered., so this isn’t a like for like comparison. The Porsche Warranty is less specific about scope.

Regardless, the maximum single repair ceiling is currently £10k - which clearly wouldn’t cover a full battery swap, but would be enough to replace ‘some‘ modules.
The maximum claim total across the warranty period matches the vehicle value. The maximum labour rate is £250..

Nowhere near conclusive but nonetheless good that there’s a product available.

 

[VOLT4GE]

(Supposedly)

 

[Gino]

The stats I was looking at a little while back I think were from NHTSA, so USA market only, which has been dominated by Teslas so far. Also, ICE cars include a much larger portion of really old cars, which I think also contributes to them catching on fire (not many 20 year old EV's driving around barely maintained).

Yes, EV fires are harder to put out, but personally I think this is a temporary problem, just like diesel fires were harder to put out than gasoline (diesel fire cannot just be starved of oxygen, hence its use in submarines), and gasoline being harder to put out than wood, etc, etc. Eventually the fire fighting technology will catch up.

You are exactly right… Just as tanks full of gas, diesel, LNG, propane and hydrogen have become better & better engineered for long term safe operation so will batteries. Just a matter of time…

 

[Gino]

A recovery truck may be needed to take you to your final resting place.

Then again, if it goes up in flames (intentionally) after I’m gone then I’ll be cremated with the most beautiful performance sedan I’ve ever owned…

 

[whitex]

I tried to get a quote but the system ‘knows’ that there’s a manufacturer’s battery warranty in place so excludes that from cover.

Perhaps quote a Taycan with >100,000 miles?

Regardless, the maximum single repair ceiling is currently £10k - which clearly wouldn’t cover a full battery swap, but would be enough to replace ‘some‘ modules.

So they'd pay to replace the whole battery one module at a time?

 

[sraworld]

We have all seen a 250,000 mile, say Volvo, will we ever see a 250,000 mile Taycan?

 

[Caraholic]

We have all seen a 250,000 mile, say Volvo, will we ever see a 250,000 mile Taycan?

yes you will see one for sure. That’s not that many miles. Now what it cost to keep that on the road that will be the big question.

 

[DerekS]

What happens after 8 year battery warranty? (Or after you void it with a ding > 3mm?). Simple.

You beg insurance to repair it for 52-72K. Or you buy a battery from a wreck for 6-7K and find someone to plug it in.

 

[Uknown]

The reality is that the battery IS a consumable and its life will, at least in part, be dependant on how it is treated by the owner, like the brake pads and discs, for example.
Based on Porsche's support of their older models I am hoping the battery packs can be overhauled, perhaps including new technology if the hardware is compatible and firmware can be altered to suit.
The labour to strip and rebuild the battery would not be negligible but probably by then specialists will be around who have sussed quick ways.
Just like rebuilding a flat 6 with improved parts.

Yes, there will be new models by then but people may still keep the older ones, like they do with 911s though they are nowadays a totally different type of car, in a different market sector to the original, but who knows.
As I have written here before there were predictors of doom for the Toyota Prius and its hybrid battery over short life and excessive replacement cost but we now know they can be rebuilt at modest cost and our first one, now 19 years old, is still working fine in daily use on its original battery.

The one thing I do not think is equivalent in IC car speak is mileage.
Mileage is a reasonable way of estimating wear and life on the mechanical parts but with something like a battery chemical deterioration is also part of it and that will be time and climate dependant.
So again, like any used car, its condition strongly dependant on its history.

Well said. If I buy another used EV I will require a SoH, and what ever else can be shown for battery usage, charging habits. Climate is very interesting as well including if it is stored outdoors a lot. The hard part is unlike an engine we don’t yet have great tools or sight into the potential damages or shortened life.

 

[Uknown]

When the battery tech gets to be more stable chemically the shipping complexity should come down and the costs should follow.

It does feel like Porsche oversold/mislead on the repair factor. These packs seem very complex, and highly integrated.

I think a winning path for a company like Porsche would be to drive down the repair costs and swap packs. With a credit to you for the cells they can salvage / and put into another rebuilt pack. If they could drive that down to $20k every 10-15 years it would be painful but more known. Your repaired/remanufactured pack may not live as long, but should add a lot of life to the car.

A wear and tear agreement to balance the insurance /factory warranty.

 

[D00notD00d]

The quote system factored in that

When the battery tech gets to be more stable chemically the shipping complexity should come down and the costs should follow.

It does feel like Porsche oversold/mislead on the repair factor. These packs seem very complex, and highly integrated.

I think a winning path for a company like Porsche would be to drive down the repair costs and swap packs. With a credit to you for the cells they can salvage / and put into another rebuilt pack. If they could drive that down to $20k every 10-15 years it would be painful but more known. Your repaired/remanufactured pack may not live as long, but should add a lot of life to the car.

A wear and tear agreement to balance the insurance /factory warranty.

I think currently miss-selling is occurring on a number of fronts.

Agree Porsche needs to move to address longevity & value retention and therefore incentives to buy new or newer Taycans/Macans and hybrids. Premium car models shouldn’t be disposables.

Upside, in 2028 my low mileage but worthless out of battery warranty my21 may seem like a bargain against an otherwise not much different my2025.

Cross posting this:
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/second-hand-market-in-cardiac-arrest.21011/
#4

 

[Avantgarde]

Reading the long thread i’d point to two unique issues I see:

1- The concern many of us have here is not about battery longevity in terms of capacity retention (which does not seem to be an issue) but random unexplained red circle of deaths, which immediately results in 5 figure repair cost whether it is a cell repair or whole pack swap. Having to deal with that uncertainty out of warranty is a problem

2- The main reason behind the unreasonable cost of repairs is porsche pricing for labor and parts, which is historically designed to make sure customer drops a minimum $ when they get in to the service shop even for a small job (which is understandable, luxury product, lack of price sensitivity, milk it wherever you can). However when you extrapolate that pricing and margin structure to “battery diagnosis and replacement” which is a whole different game, the resulting cost goes from “luxury/expensive” to ridiculous.

Even if they don’t offer a post yr 8 warranty, they need to offer a reasonable&transparent “flat fee” battery pack swap option, if the goal is not to kill this product line for good.

 

[SteveDC]

Reading the long thread i’d point to two unique issues I see:

1- The concern many of us have here is not around about battery longevity in terms of capacity retention (which does not seem to be an issue) but random unexplained red circle of deaths, which immediately results in 5 figure repair cost whether it is a cell repair or whole pack swaps. Having to deal with that uncertainty out of warranty is a problem

2- The main reason behind the unreasonable cost of repairs is porsche pricing for labor and parts, which is historically designed to make sure customer drops a minimum $ when they get in to service even for a small job (which is understandable, luxury product, lack of price sensitivity, milk it wherever you can). However when you extrapolate that pricing and margin structure to “battery diagnosis and replacement” which is a whole different game, the resulting cost goes from “luxury/expensive” to ridiculous.

Even if they don’t offer a post yr 8 warranty, they need to offer a reasonable&transparent “flat fee” battery pack swap option, if the goal is not to kill this product line for good.

Plan B:
https://electrek.co/2024/08/27/nissans-electric-gt-r-solid-state-batteries-1-mw-power/

Solid state batteries. Half the weight, twice the power, quicker charging, safer (no liquid electrolyte)

 

[D00notD00d]

Reading the long thread i’d point to two unique issues I see:

1- The concern many of us have here is not about battery longevity in terms of capacity retention (which does not seem to be an issue) but random unexplained red circle of deaths, which immediately results in 5 figure repair cost whether it is a cell repair or whole pack swap. Having to deal with that uncertainty out of warranty is a problem

2- The main reason behind the unreasonable cost of repairs is porsche pricing for labor and parts, which is historically designed to make sure customer drops a minimum $ when they get in to the service shop even for a small job (which is understandable, luxury product, lack of price sensitivity, milk it wherever you can). However when you extrapolate that pricing and margin structure to “battery diagnosis and replacement” which is a whole different game, the resulting cost goes from “luxury/expensive” to ridiculous.

Even if they don’t offer a post yr 8 warranty, they need to offer a reasonable&transparent “flat fee” battery pack swap option, if the goal is not to kill this product line for good.

Numbers below follow yours above
1) Reasonable battery degradation.at 8 years old/100k miles is expected. But for their Approved Warranty Porsche has not defined what constitutes unreasonable battery wear and tear degradation beyond those milestones.
So far my degradation is 9% in almost 4 years and 24k miles. If that continues on a linear basis I‘ll have no complaints. Is degradation linear?
By design, the Porsche modular battery architecture uses the least health battery module/cell to govern the overall SofH. Balancing occurs downwards. That seems opposite to the benefits of modular/failsafe design - battery health/range is governed by the least healthy of your 28/33 battery modules. If one fails, they all fail..
Checking individual module/cell capacity isn’t included in any service schedule or the 111 point sale check. Porsche policy is that if you want to know your SofH, a dealer can charge you for it.
Porsche has also not defined what constitutes unreasonable battery wear and tear resulting in a full battery failure beyond the manufacturers battery warranty period. Selling an approved warranty with a promise of ‘peace of mind’ without defining what is normal wear and saying it will review claims on a case-by-case basis is an unfair commercial practice.

2) HV servicing and repair is a game changer. Dealers are having to train HV techs, provide specific safeTy clothing, create and equip new HV worships with new kit to meet safety requirements and provide sufficient dedicated ramps, which are tied up during lengthy repair processes. The training and clothing cost is about £60k per FTE. They need a return on their 7 figure people & plant investments. Until they build experience, repair times may vary.
Judged on that basis dealer labour costs are not unreasonable. Dealers will have a labour monopoly for at least a decade.
Porsche has always exploited their parts supply monopoly.

Apparently the labour cost for module replacement is more than for a full swap - as you say, swaps for full remanufactured units must become more cost effective, else every car that suffers a battery failure after year 8 will be worth only salvage value.

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