Sponsored

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
192
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
10,478
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
To be fair to Porsche they do have proper OTA, just not on the Taycan. The Macan has proper OTA.

The Taycan uses the same plattform that the e-tron SUV uses, and that was developed way back. They have done some development on it, but the fundamentals are the same.
which Macan?

there are levels of OTA in vehicles - PCM app updates - Taycan has OTA updates - ABS braking system - dealer visit…

and I'm not sure the degree to which any new Porsche has OTA updates…
Sponsored

 

GreenHornet

Well-Known Member
First Name
Chris
Joined
Jun 22, 2022
Threads
6
Messages
172
Reaction score
236
Location
Oslo, Norway
Website
www.instagram.com
Vehicles
2022 Taycan GTS Sport Turismo Dolomite Silver, wrapped to Nardo Grey
Country flag
which Macan?

there are levels of OTA in vehicles - PCM app updates - Taycan has OTA updates - ABS braking system - dealer visit…

and I'm not sure the degree to which any new Porsche has OTA updates…
Sorry. The Macan EV.
 

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
192
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
10,478
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
Sorry. The Macan EV.
that was my assumption - the degree to whlch the new Macan EV has OTA updates is very unclear (given it's an unreleased product)…we'll have to see - I'm expecting better PCM app updates, maybe PCM itself via OTA, but serious vehicle subsystem software updates will still require a dealer visit - we'll have to see.

they clearly have some level of no OTA updates - given that Macan EV future owners are being told left/right by various dealerships that their deliveries will be delayed because of a need for a day-1 software update - and there are not enough tech's to perform the updates - doesn't sound OTA to me.
 

chun

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2024
Threads
27
Messages
2,358
Reaction score
2,116
Location
Switzerland
Vehicles
Taycan Turbo 2020, Cayman GT4
Country flag
Macan EV is on android auto. So OTA = android updates pieline. But that's only for the main software; which for porsche is not tied to any of the other MANY subsystems, unlike Tesla / Rivian / Lucid / Modern chinese cars. So any other updates would be in service for the Macan also.

And as pointed out above, the moment they had to delay the Macan EV because of day-1 software needing to be applied by techs... yea, definitely no OTA.

OTA means and should mean more than map updates... And the fact that it still is an issue that they don't seem to be even atempting to fix has me worried about the future of Porsche, and the security of their cars, as these cars are connected to people's phones all the time...
 


Sace

Well-Known Member
First Name
Anders
Joined
Mar 8, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
257
Reaction score
226
Location
Denmark
Vehicles
Taycan Sport Tourismo
Country flag
If they go with this it will be just amazing especially that the PB+ fitted on the J1 is even smaller than the one in the J1, so extra charging speed will have a great impact on the 10%-80% charging time.
I honestly think there is a mistake in the way this is written. The new generation car charges faster mainly due to a larger battery pack and the temperature range is wider due to a new cell chemistry. I very highly doubt that they can improve the charging speed on the existing car with software updates.

More likely is efficiency and longevity improvements due to better thermal management.

Let's see. For me simple stuff like updating the PCM with the charge limit slider etc. would be a nice update. But I don't have high hopes for any substantial changes.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,218
Reaction score
7,251
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
I very highly doubt that they can improve the charging speed on the existing car with software updates.
Having been a Tesla customer, they update their cars over-the-air, and I have in the past received updates which improved range, improved maximum power the battery can provide, and changed maximum charge rates too. As Tesla learned more about their batteries, they'd loosen some originally conservative restrictions because real life telemetry from customer cars has showed them that their battery lifecycle model was too conservative, so they loosen restrictions and/or change BMS algorithms. Traditional manufacturers like Porsche don't have such advanced telemetry (which by the way requires good OTA, because often engineers want to start collecting some new data, so the telemetry collection software on the car has to be updated), so they learn from shop reports, VAL logs, etc. Once they learn however, they have no way to tweak the BMS algorithm for example and then watch new telemetry to see how things turn out, they can only experiment with changes from model year to model year at best. Early Tesla owners have gotten many BMS updates over the life of their car. Current ones get them too, just not as often as the early cars where Tesla was earlier on the learning curve.
 
Last edited:


daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
192
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
10,478
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
I honestly think there is a mistake in the way this is written. The new generation car charges faster mainly due to a larger battery pack and the temperature range is wider due to a new cell chemistry. I very highly doubt that they can improve the charging speed on the existing car with software updates.

More likely is efficiency and longevity improvements due to better thermal management.were

Let's see. For me simple stuff like updating the PCM with the charge limit slider etc. would be a nice update. But I don't have high hopes for any substantial changes.
charging speed limits is a software policy meant to achieve battery warranty goals - if Porsche has confidence they were too conservative with the policy they can tweak it with a software update to charge faster

there is no physical limit to how fast you can charge a LiON cell - there is only BMS enforced policy so as not to damage the cell(s)

it’s purely a matter of what Porsche is comfortable in terms of allowance on the charging curve

if they have the wear data they can upgrade the charging speed to what ever they want. - we already know they acknowledge battery deg is less than expected across the fleet - so i think they have confidence they can push the battery a little harder with no ill effects on cell longevity

all of these “limits” are giant software enforced SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) to begin with - so a new SWAG can allow faster charging if Porsche believes their cells can handle it.
 
Last edited:

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,218
Reaction score
7,251
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
there is no physical limit to how fast you can charge a LiON cell - there is only BMS enforced policy so as not to damage the cell(s)
Well, there are physical limits - wiring impedances as well as battery internal impedances due to their physical and chemical characteristics (impedance includes both resistance and capacitance/inductance), speed of light will come into play at some point too, but I get the point you're trying to make - the current maximum charge rate is designed make the battery last at least for the duration of the warranty. I bet you could charge the Taycan battery at 6C (~600KW) a bunch times before you kill it - wiring can definitely take it since launch mode comes close to pulling this amount of power out of the battery. Such charging cycles though would start degrading the battery in a hurry.
 

Sace

Well-Known Member
First Name
Anders
Joined
Mar 8, 2023
Threads
0
Messages
257
Reaction score
226
Location
Denmark
Vehicles
Taycan Sport Tourismo
Country flag
charging speed limits is a software policy meant to achieve battery warranty goals - if Porsche has confidence they were too conservative with the policy they can tweak it with a software update to charge faster

there is no physical limit to how fast you can charge a LiON cell - there is only BMS enforced policy so as not to damage the cell(s)

it’s purely a matter of what Porsche is comfortable in terms of allowance on the charging curve

if they have the wear data they can upgrade the charging speed to what ever they want. - we already know they acknowledge battery deg is less than expected across the fleet - so i think they have confidence they can push the battery a little harder with no ill effects on cell longevity

all of these “limits” are giant SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) to begin with - so a new SWAG can allow faster charging.
I realize that I wasn't that clear in my original post. I'm fully aware that the software controls these parameters. But since the new battery and the increased charging speed matches very closely I assume that the actual stress on the cells are very similar between the generations. Letting the old battery go to 320kW would mean running with more relaxed parameters than in the new generation which is what I doubt. I also suspect that they haven't qualified the system to charge at more than 270kW so increasing the speed on existing cars would require a lot of testing first.
 

daveo4EV

Well-Known Member
First Name
David
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Threads
192
Messages
7,007
Reaction score
10,478
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
Cayenne Hybrid, 911(s) GT3/Convertable
Country flag
I realize that I wasn't that clear in my original post. I'm fully aware that the software controls these parameters. But since the new battery and the increased charging speed matches very closely I assume that the actual stress on the cells are very similar between the generations. Letting the old battery go to 320kW would mean running with more relaxed parameters than in the new generation which is what I doubt. I also suspect that they haven't qualified the system to charge at more than 270kW so increasing the speed on existing cars would require a lot of testing first.
i agree - i don’t think can increase the max rate (270 kw) but they can certainly tweak the taper curve resulting in a faster charging session over all - i don’t think k the old stuff can match the new stuff kw for kw - but the charging curve may been quite conservative and that can be adjusted to maximize the capabilities of the gen1 cell chemistries
 
OP
OP
freeforall

freeforall

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2022
Threads
5
Messages
211
Reaction score
215
Location
Paris
Vehicles
Taycan Sport Turismo
Country flag
i agree - i don’t think can increase the max rate (270 kw) but they can certainly tweak the taper curve resulting in a faster charging session over all - i don’t think k the old stuff can match the new stuff kw for kw - but the charging curve may been quite conservative and that can be adjusted to maximize the capabilities of the gen1 cell chemistries
Yes agree for the 2nd point, this is also what they mentioned. It will be better but it won’t match the new capabilities.
However for the max charging rate if the only reason they limited it to 270 kWh was due to thermal management and they are saying it is improved now (and this is the piece they want to retrofit fully or partially), they might relax the max rate as well. I am not an expert though I am just reading the article. And all of this is still assumptions based on a short article. So the chances that I am right are still low ?
I hope Porsche communicated more on this kind of subjects.
 

logic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
50
Reaction score
78
Location
Belgium
Vehicles
E-tron GT, BMW M4
Country flag
My very personal opinion, others might disagree: I do think that Porsche can create the exception about EV depreciation with the Taycan
(..)
Agree! I also think it mainly evolves around the battery. Fixing an old module by replacing it with another old one, shows you how much there's lacking in this regard.

One of the biggest fears for any 2nd hand buyer is battery longevity (and not having to tow the car for every cell that goes wrong :rolleyes: would be helpful). The lack of long term developments and support simply translates in depreciation.

Porsche is in the best position to address these issues for their own models.
Dealerships are also looking into way's to increase their revenue (compensating for less maintenance on EV's), battery upgradability and services could help them out.

Clearly battery costs are rapidly going down, otherwise explain to me how EV's are being sold for $20K in mainland China. Future upgrades, or even a "downgrade" to a cheaper LFP battery, just for the sake of extending the life of a vehicle, should be considered. And although less attractive to me, something like a "Battery-As-A-Service" option could also extend the life of a vehicle.

Currently, and very surprising to me, none of these things are in place.
 

Caraholic

Well-Known Member
First Name
Don
Joined
Apr 12, 2021
Threads
10
Messages
844
Reaction score
555
Location
South Carolina
Vehicles
Taycan Turbo S, FL5 Type R, 392XR JL, F430, Cayman S
Country flag
Dealers are not hurting at all with these electric vehicles. Look at just how many recalls Taycan has had let alone all the problem cars out there. The dealer gets paid each time one of these happens. If anything they may be making more on electric then gas cars now.
Sponsored

 
 








Top