[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[chun]

Not sure why there’s any reason to argue.

The market has spoken already. You can look at the Chinese market, the biggest auto market. What makes anyone else believe other markets will be different if they get access to those same cars?

They have out-performed any other car in terms of luxury, performance, tech at any given price point and in any given segment and size.

And the market has decided that they value actual value over prestige and brand.

Porsche’s “new” strategy is to sell more ICE cars that have weissach and more options. As if a new breed of mass consumer has appeared that gives a flying fk about weissach. Or perhaps porsche has forgotten that they make hundreds of thousands of cars a year, unlike Ferrari which they keep trying to imitate - mostly in pricing

The Chinese market was Porsche’s biggest / strongest market. The don’t exist in that market anymore.

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[69Mach390]

I think this is where your knowledge has a huge gap. I drove Teslas for over a decade. I switched my wife into a Tesla after 3 years. When I changed her car from a Tesla to an Audi eTron, over 2 years later I still hear from her how things "just worked" on a Tesla, as compared to the Audi. There is a night and day different between user experience of a Tesla and the other guys (I hear some Chinese EVs come close, but I've never owned one, I'm US based).

My elderly parents who hate most new technologies, only got smartphones during the pandemic because Canadian government made the vaccination records digital and life without a smartphone was just too hard, they got a Model Y and don't ever plan to switch to another type of car again. If they ever do need another one, it will be another Model Y, because it just works (and they've owned different brands during their life, with Toyota being their all time favorite before the Model Y).

I think I figured out where you and I disconnect. You truly have never experienced a car that just works, you get in the car, no ON/OFF button, no key, you can leave the driver seat with passengers in the car and the car won't just shut off (like an Audi for example, after 60 seconds, even if you leave the key inside), or the OTA update pops up a message and asks you when you'd like to apply the OTA (typically while sleeping, and then you get back into the car which tells you the update is done), vs. Porsche's complex "turn off pre-conditioning, turn the car off, wait for message to appear, etc, etc)".

I now get it, you simply have not had experienced it - probably similarly to a Walkman user who never tried an iPod saying "iPod is more expensive, but otherwise does the same thing - plays music through my headphones".

Other people have experienced it, which is why they keep going to Tesla. The ONLY thing that is keeping my wife from going back to a Tesla is Elons political antics, seriously, the "it just works" principle is unbeatable. If it wasn't for Elon getting into politics, I would have been trading in less than a year old eTon for a Tesla.

Your stance of "Model Y won because it was first for market" is like saying "iPhone's success is purel due to being first to market". It wasn't, nor was Tesla the fist EV.

I think the disconnect is in this post where you are now talking about an entirely different subject.

I said Tesla was the first EV to “mass market.” The word “mass” a very important distinction. A mere 5 years ago when you told people you bought an EV, they assumed it was a Tesla.

The first EV to market happened in the 1800s.

 

[whitex]

I think the disconnect is in this post where you are now talking about an entirely different subject.

I said Tesla was the first EV to “mass market.” The word “mass” a very important distinction. A mere 5 years ago when you told people you bought an EV, they assumed it was a Tesla.

The first EV to market happened in the 1800s.

Yea, but they are not dominating the EV market share because they were first to mass market, rather because they give their customers the product they’d rather buy. Heck, Model Y was the number one selling car worldwide, ICE and EV included, at least one quarter in 2025. Hence my point that other manufacturers should learn from that, give customers what they want. Things like CCS1 DC chargers should have never happened - why build a shitty product after someone else who already has gone to mass market has a better one? It was so bad that even after investing literally billions in it, the industry gave up and took on Tesla’s solution.

 

[69Mach390]

Yea, but they are not dominating the EV market share because they were first to mass market, rather because they give their customers the product they’d rather buy. Heck, Model Y was the number one selling car worldwide, ICE and EV included, at least one quarter in 2025. Hence my point that other manufacturers should learn from that, give customers what they want. Things like CCS1 DC chargers should have never happened - why build a shitty product after someone else who already has gone to mass market has a better one? It was so bad that even after investing literally billions in it, the industry gave up and took on Tesla’s solution.

This isn’t a disagreement, you’re just talking about a chicken or egg situation.

They were first to mass market BECAUSE they gave people the product they’d “rather buy.” And like I said in that same post, the product was “simple, plain, and cheap.”

The Model Y sales skyrocketed……. When they dropped the price $15,000. That’s the “cheap” part.

The car itself? Had terrible build quality, lacked a ton of features, rode like crap, is arguably ugly and was near the bottom of reliability studies. Actually a pretty shitty product itself. Sorry, but you’re not going to convince me that the Model Y sold so well because it was a superior product. Of that list of 73 EVs selling in the US, there are plenty of cars much better than the model Y.

Plus they used some “shady” marketing techniques to help push sales. Using a different EPA test than everyone else to boost their rated range higher than reality. Adding in “potential gas savings” as a $5,000 price reduction on their advertised prices. Calling their level 2 autonomous driving “full self drive,” when it’s not. Constantly lying about the product launch dates. Many false claims about the safety of their vehicles…. I’m sure I could google more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.

But again, this is a completely separate debate from what we were originally discussing.

 

[whitex]

Sorry, but you’re not going to convince me that the Model Y sold so well because it was a superior product. Of that list of 73 EVs selling in the US, there are plenty of cars much better than the model Y.

I see, so you theory is that vast majority of people who chose Model Y over the other 73 EV's was purely because Tesla was first to market, right? Do you think majority of people will always choose a product from a first to market company over 72 other choices? Blackberry must be selling a ton of smartphones in your universe.

 

[whitex]

Plus they used some “shady” marketing techniques to help push sales. Using a different EPA test than everyone else to boost their rated range higher than reality. Adding in “potential gas savings” as a $5,000 price reduction on their advertised prices. Calling their level 2 autonomous driving “full self drive,” when it’s not. Constantly lying about the product launch dates. Many false claims about the safety of their vehicles…. I’m sure I could google more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.

Yet, despite those being exposed for years on forums, and all of Elon's political antics, a vast majority of customers continued to buy Model Y over any other car. Hmm.... must be your "customers will always choose the product from first to market company" theory. I guess until there is a time machine, Tesla will always the majority of EV market, purely because they were there first.

 

[whitex]

But again, this is a completely separate debate from what we were originally discussing.

Same debate, whether Tesla is doing things which others should attempt to replicate or even best, in order to get more customers to choose their product over Tesla.

 

[69Mach390]

I see, so you theory is that vast majority of people who chose Model Y over the other 73 EV's was purely because Tesla was first to market, right? Do you think majority of people will always choose a product from a first to market company over 72 other choices? Blackberry must be selling a ton of smartphones in your universe.

This is like the 4th time you’ve partially quoted me and then summarize it incorrectly by saying something like “purely because” or “your entire argument is….”

I make 5 or six points and you cherry pick one and claim it’s the only thing I’m saying.

No, I don’t think the only reason people pick the Teslas is because it was first to market. I NEVER stated that as the “only reason.” I also never said it was “first to market,” another mis-quote that I already clarified.

I definitely don’t think it sells so well due to its superiority, for the 5 or 6 reasons I stated above. It’s not superior.

But that’s pretty typical of high volume cars. They’re rarely the “best.” But they are typically plain, simple and cheap.

 

[69Mach390]

Same debate, whether Tesla is doing things which others should attempt to replicate or even best, in order to get more customers to choose their product over Tesla.

It’s not.

You somehow changed the argument into a debate about the quality of the Tesla product, which was never brought up until you did.

I was talking about the inability to copy Tesla’s business model because you can’t time travel back to 2013 and mass market, there are waaaaaaay too many competitors now (73) and not a fast enough growing market to gain market share for those 73.

Had literally nothing to do with product quality and I still think it has nothing to do with product quality.

Why not? Because plenty of those 73 are superior products and it doesn’t seem to make a difference in terms of sales numbers today.

They are a little early (too much competition now) and a little late (Tesla already dominated the market).

MAYBE if one or more of those 73 models came out a decade ago, they could have beaten out Tesla. But today? It’s a losing battle. Or if a lot less models came out at the same time, they’d also have a chance.

And yes, once again, I think being first to mass market is a HUGE advantage today. Most people would be lucky to name 5 “non-Tesla” EV models for sale. And there are 73.

People don’t shop for your product if they don’t know it exists. And Tesla has become the Kleenex of the EV world, at least in the US.

 

[whitex]

I definitely don’t think it sells so well due to its superiority, for the 5 or 6 reasons I stated above. It’s not superior.

Ok, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Spell out for me why YOU think Tesla sells so much better than any other competitor TODAY. Perhaps I missed the whole story in between replies. To be clear, the question is, why do majority of EV customers in US choose to purchase a Tesla over other EVs in the US, today?

 

[69Mach390]

Ok, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Spell out for me why YOU think Tesla sells so much better than any other competitor TODAY. Perhaps I missed the whole story in between replies. To be clear, the question is, why do majority of EV customers in US choose to purchase a Tesla over other EVs in the US, today?

The same things I’ve said since the first time you asked the question.

Brand recognition and loyalty from being first to mass market. I’ll add in the tech and charging network advantages that go along with being first to mass market.

Cheap, simple, plain. (Common characteristics of any high volume car).

And when you asked again, I clarified it’s definitely not by being a superior product. Heck, even their OWN product (Model S), is superior but has extremely low sales in comparison.

Then when a ton of competitors came to market, they doubled down on “cheap” by lowering prices by $15,000 for the Model Y.

And lastly, it is still irrelevant to the prior discussion. But you asked so I don’t mind answering.

 

[whitex]

The same things I’ve said since the first time you asked the question.

Brand recognition and loyalty from being first to mass market. I’ll add in the tech and charging network advantages that go along with being first to mass market.

Cheap, simple, plain. (Common characteristics of any high volume car).

And when you asked again, I clarified it’s definitely not by being a superior product. Heck, even their OWN product (Model S), is superior but has extremely low sales in comparison.

Then when a ton of competitors came to market, they doubled down on “cheap” by lowering prices by $15,000 for the Model Y.

And lastly, it is still irrelevant to the prior discussion. But you asked so I don’t mind answering.

I appreciate the answer. So let's go one by 1:

1. Brand recognition - obviously Tesla does not have greater brand recognition than Ford or Toyota, or Honda, or VW or Porsche, or even Ferrari (with much lower volumes). If you're thinking BEV brand, perhaps, but any Toyota loyal owner of ICE car will check their brand offering first before going to Tesla. My elderly parents did exactly that, Toyota didn't have a more compelling EV offering for them. I know other people who went through the exact same process. Heck, so I did I.
2. Loyalty - obviously any Tesla loyalty had to be from driving prior Teslas, so not that far back in time (2012 was the first Model S, though just based on volumes sold, that couldn't have produce a lot of loyal customer, as compared to Toyota or VW for example). If we consider numbers of customers per manufacturer, Tesla must have but a fraction of loyal customers as compared to Ford, Totota, VW, etc. So the only way loyal customer can be such a big advantage to Tesla is if they retain/create more loyal customers (if Tesla sells 1/6-th the volume of cars of VW, but somehow ends up with higher number of loyal customers, their product must be liked more that 6 times better by their customers than VW customers liking the VW product, no?).
3. Cheap - why can't the other guys make it cheap? They have more experience in manufacturing, more already sunk costs in factories, etc.
4. Simple - again, why can't the other guys make their cars simple if the customers like it better?
5. Plain - is it really that hard for the other guys to make a plain car? Should help with "cheap" too, no?

I am not arguing about quality of Tesla product by the way, simply that consumers by a large margin choose Tesla over other cars. Heck, for BEV cars, consumers almost choose Tesla as much as they choose all other brands combined, so they like it 72 times more (1:72 ratio if I use your numbers)! So whether it's great quality, of shit quality, whatever it is, Tesla is making a product that consumers want, hence it would make sense for the competition do the same, or better (or worse, if it turns out consumers choose Tesla because of their low quality, as you say their products are).

 

[69Mach390]

I appreciate the answer. So let's go one by 1:

1. Brand recognition - obviously Tesla does not have greater brand recognition than Ford or Toyota, or Honda, or VW or Porsche, or even Ferrari (with much lower volumes). If you're thinking BEV brand, perhaps, but any Toyota loyal owner of ICE car will check their brand offering first before going to Tesla. My elderly parents did exactly that, Toyota didn't have a more compelling EV offering for them. I know other people who went through the exact same process. Heck, so I did I.
2. Loyalty - obviously any Tesla loyalty had to be from driving prior Teslas, so not that far back in time (2012 was the first Model S, though just based on volumes sold, that couldn't have produce a lot of loyal customer, as compared to Toyota or VW for example). If we consider numbers of customers per manufacturer, Tesla must have but a fraction of loyal customers as compared to Ford, Totota, VW, etc. So the only way loyal customer can be such a big advantage to Tesla is if they retain/create more loyal customers (if Tesla sells 1/6-th the volume of cars of VW, but somehow ends up with higher number of loyal customers, their product must be liked more that 6 times better by their customers than VW customers liking the VW product, no?).
3. Cheap - why can't the other guys make it cheap? They have more experience in manufacturing, more already sunk costs in factories, etc.
4. Simple - again, why can't the other guys make their cars simple if the customers like it better?
5. Plain - is it really that hard for the other guys to make a plain car? Should help with "cheap" too, no?

I am not arguing about quality of Tesla product by the way, simply that consumers by a large margin choose Tesla over other cars. Heck, for BEV cars, consumers almost choose Tesla as much as they choose all other brands combined, so they like it 72 times more (1:72 ratio if I use your numbers)! So whether it's great quality, of shit quality, whatever it is, Tesla is making a product that consumers want, hence it would make sense for the competition do the same, or better (or worse, if it turns out consumers choose Tesla because of their low quality, as you say their products are).

For sure there is loyalty. Customer satisfaction with Tesla is at the top while reliability is at the bottom.

The brand recognition only applies to the EV category. I would bet most people don’t know that Toyota and Subaru even have EVs.

This situation of being the first to mass market isn’t unique to EVs. Lots of markets have what’s known as a “wide moat.”

Amazon is an example, but there are many more.

If all you had to do was build the best product, business success would be so easy.

The good news for consumers is that we have 73 vehicles to choose from. And some amazing “hidden gems” in there too. The bad thing for manufacturers is that they’re losing their shirts despite their best efforts.

Poor Ford for example probably spent more money advertising to sell 30,000 Lightnings at huge discounts and losses in 2025 than they spent to advertise and sell 800,000 F series trucks.

 

[voksic]

History is full of examples where superior tech died out while much worse technology prevailed. This is the part where you can have tons of smart people making tons of great products, and only one succeeds. It's called luck. VHS was garbage. It was so bad that JVC changed their business model into selling licencse. Beta8 died and VHS became mass market. IBM PC was crap compared to Macs, etc.

And if you think it's not luck, but skills in case of Tesla, then explain Cybertruck or Tesla's lorry offering. It's luck. FFS, 911 was a struck of luck too!

Tesla will be lucky if they end up with iPhone style market in couple of years. But something tells me Elon will totally sink that ship.

Brand recognition works against you when those who are first to market manage to position other brand's business as obsolete. Then you don't want to be seen in a Porsche, as that means old tech product. Chinese car companies (or better to say Chinese government) are taking the same approach as Tesla did. Exactly the same. Diff is that their goal is not to establish the brand as a leader, but the industry as a whole.

 

[SoccerMan94043]

Just for the record on Telsa:

1) Tesla is 9th on new car reliability now, according to Consumer Reports: https://www.consumerreports.org/car...who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/

2) There isn't a breakdown of sales on the differing Model Y levels, but the cost difference is ~40K to ~48K (removing the performance vs which I don't think sells enough to matter much). Average cost of 45K for a car is not cheap, yet more people are choosing it.

3) Tesla brand loyalty is falling, yet the Model Y is still selling well (indicating the EV market is growing): https://www.spglobal.com/automotive-insights/en/blogs/2025/09/tesla-brand-loyalty-evolving-ev-market

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