What's the best alternative to the Taycan?

[bluesky]

Well, this is a time of flux, the lull between a lot of new car introductions. In summary, I think this is not the time right now to switch cars.

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[bluesky]

Re: BMW active suspension:

this isn't out yet. If you search, the hits and the AI summaries all just rehash the Adaptive suspension. I have "M Adaptive Suspension" on my i5 M60 with DHP package, and it is a true adaptive suspensions (i.e. the damper characteristics are computer controlled, but are not hydraulic units that can "push back" like active suspension).

BMW is supposedly working on their own Active suspension, like PAR. I don't think it's officially announced for any upcoming vehicle so that's another wait and see. I'd like to see BMW actually put active suspension on an M car. PAR was very compelling to me, and I definitely would have spec'ed that on a Taycan.

 

[chun]

I don’t believe a Taycan customer would choose between these two options.

You don't believe that someone buying a 40-60k car would buy another 30-70k car? Especially when it actually gives more performance, better battery, better software?
The face lifted ultra is going to get a active ride equivalent - developed also in germany

Maybe a 911 customer won't buy a Xiaomi, but I can see 90% of taycan customers getting a Xiaomi once they sit/drive one
All the people saying it's less than a taycan haven't sat in one.

 

[Freeewilly]

To me, it feels like comparing a Suzuki Jimny to a Mercedes-Benz G-Class. They share some design similarities, but they are entirely different cars catering to different budgets and preferences. I don’t believe a Taycan customer would choose between these two options.

If you remove the badge, and ignore the price difference. SU7 is a better (not all) car in many ways.

Electrify, exterior style and brand prestige were the main reasons I owned my first Porsche. Now I've owned a couple Taycan. The urge of owning another Porsche definitely not as high as before.

Porsche really needs to offer better products for people willing to pay premium price for it.

 

[69Mach390]

If you remove the badge, and ignore the price difference. SU7 is a better (not all) car in many ways.

If you ignore the price, I get the feeling this car will fall very short.

It’s pretty and the stats look good. I just have a hard time believing you can make a quality comparable product at that price.

Here’s some quality data I found-

According to the China Automobile Quality Network, the Xiaomi SU7 finished dead last in the segment of large EV sedans with 239 penalty points. This is 56 points more than the average performance of the segment. The source mentioned that this result indicates a high risk of potential defects and a high complaint-to-sales ratio. This vehicle is not for sale in the USA, but something to be aware of.

 

[Fish Fingers]

Worth noting for the OP (and anyone in the UK) to just check your insurance if jumping ship to a Chinese car.

News this week....
https://www.evo.co.uk/news/208530/t...rs-may-carry-an-expensive-catch-for-uk-buyers

 

[Scandinavian]

It’s pretty and the stats look good. I just have a hard time believing you can make a quality comparable product at that price.

I guess this is mainly due to not having any of the Chinese cars in USA.
’We own a Chinese car Zeekr 7X in Sweden and it is far too early to talk about reliabilityand quality long term. But the build quality is far above many established European brands. And miles batter than a Tesla. Add all the features and responsiveness from the computers and it leaves Porsche in the dust!
oh and OTA updates for all the functions work a treat, the company asks for feedback and shares and addresses future roadmaps. They have already in 9 months improved minor issues with the car immensely! At the samelength of ownershipour Taycan had had several issues and needed several weeks for repair at the dealer.

Worth noting for the OP (and anyone in the UK) to just check your insurance if jumping ship to a Chinese car.

Seems to be a U.K. issue at the moment. Only time will tell if this will be a problem in the future.
No issues to get a vey competitive insurance quote for the Chinese cars in Sweden.
’Sweden also has a tradition to have the full comprehensive extension included in the price byggherre manufacturer for 3 years. So you just need the fire theft and 3rd party cover from an insurance company

I have been sceptical to Chinese brands before like most of us. But I, my sons and son-in-law all have been impressed with quality and driving pleasure with the Zeekr so far!

So I would not at all underestimate the quality and reliability of Chinese cars from the larger Chinese firms.

 

[69Mach390]

I guess this is mainly due to not having any of the Chinese cars in USA.
’We own a Chinese car Zeekr 7X in Sweden and it is far too early to talk about reliabilityand quality long term. But the build quality is far above many established European brands. And miles batter than a Tesla. Add all the features and responsiveness from the computers and it leaves Porsche in the dust!
oh and OTA updates for all the functions work a treat, the company asks for feedback and shares and addresses future roadmaps. They have already in 9 months improved minor issues with the car immensely! At the samelength of ownershipour Taycan had had several issues and needed several weeks for repair at the dealer.


Seems to be a U.K. issue at the moment. Only time will tell if this will be a problem in the future.
No issues to get a vey competitive insurance quote for the Chinese cars in Sweden.
’Sweden also has a tradition to have the full comprehensive extension included in the price byggherre manufacturer for 3 years. So you just need the fire theft and 3rd party cover from an insurance company

I have been sceptical to Chinese brands before like most of us. But I, my sons and son-in-law all have been impressed with quality and driving pleasure with the Zeekr so far!

So I would not at all underestimate the quality and reliability of Chinese cars from the larger Chinese firms.

The skepticism is well earned.

We all have decades of experience in buying cheaper products made from China that “look good” and don’t hold up over time.

Their entire export economy is built on manufacturing those products.

The reliability study I posted above was about the specific car in question and from a Chinese source. And the Xiaomi finished DEAD LAST!

You CANNOT make a car that cheap without cutting corners. Cheaper/thinner/lower quality materials etc.

The performance bargain is hard to ignore. But in the end, knock offs tend to be just that. Not as good as the original but a heck of a lot cheaper.

Looking at reliability studies, the “gap” between Chinese built vehicles and imports is narrowing, but there still is a gap-

https://china.jdpower.com/press-release/2024-VDS

 

[SoccerMan94043]

You CANNOT make a car that cheap without cutting corners. Cheaper/thinner/lower quality materials etc.

Low cost, abused labor and government subsidies are also ways of cutting corners. Only time will tell on the long term quality. It took Tesla 15 years but they seem to be improving build quality and to be fair, once all the initial stuff is sorted (or accepted), Tesla's are pretty rock solid.

The Chinese seem to be learning at a much accelerated rate.

 

[Scandinavian]

The Chinese seem to be learning at a much accelerated rate.

That is the scary thing about it.
’Looking at Xiaomi now and just 3 years ago they only were known for mobiles. Now they have in 2 years time produced in the region of 500 k cars! They have set the fastest time for a production EV around Nurburgring. So it can do a bit more than just go fast straight ahead. Like Tesla model S whatever it was called.

Many of the Chinese manufacturers have employed some of the best suspension engineers from the established car producers. There are many engineers from BMW, Lotus, McLaren, Porsche etc now working for them, either in China or in design centers around Europe. They probably copy things by reverse engineering etc, but they are getting there.

And also remember please that a lot of parts in European cars might also be manufactured in China, with quality.

Renault have also just published that they will take help from China to slash 40% of their cost to produce cars.

To only challenger that I know of, that can compete properly with the Chinese, is Tesla. And they have improved the quality of their model 3 and model Y a hell of lot over the last 5-6 years! Impressive since they at the same time have reduced their prices a lot as well. And they also did not exist in volume market 10 years ago.

 

[chun]

Low cost, abused labor and government subsidies are also ways of cutting corners. Only time will tell on the long term quality. It took Tesla 15 years but they seem to be improving build quality and to be fair, once all the initial stuff is sorted (or accepted), Tesla's are pretty rock solid.

The Chinese seem to be learning at a much accelerated rate.

Highly automated manufacturing lines, that function with lights off, are not exactly low cost. They did use to get the ground for the manufacturing halls for cheap rent, but creating the assembly line was never state sponsored or cheap.

Abused labor... because the robots go 24/7?

Abused engineers because.... they live in germany and earn 3-4x what they used to get paid by german brands? At least that's what the Taycan designer that's now with Xiaomi said, and most other engeineers that work at their R&D... in germany

A lot of people are spreading myths about EV manufacturing in China. It is a very competitive market, which drives salaries high, automation in manufacturing through the roof, and quality even higher.
I work in automation of highly regulated manufacturing lines. I assure you, not tesla or any other brand outside of China can output so many cars without a human hand being involved.

The cost of living in China is smaller. And the excessive degree of automation greatly reduces the number of employees on an assembly line.

 

[69Mach390]

Low cost, abused labor and government subsidies are also ways of cutting corners. Only time will tell on the long term quality. It took Tesla 15 years but they seem to be improving build quality and to be fair, once all the initial stuff is sorted (or accepted), Tesla's are pretty rock solid.

The Chinese seem to be learning at a much accelerated rate.

This isn’t an “either/or” scenario to cut costs, it’s “both.” Labor costs typically are only 5-15% of the sticker price of a car.

20 years ago I used to sell appliances and people would ask why Frigidaire was so much less expensive than KitchenAid with the same features. I told them to look up the weight of the appliance. The Frigidaires were significantly lighter. Cheaper/thinner materials, no sound insulation etc. “Price point” products cut costs everywhere they can.

And in the case of Xiaomi, it’s their first car.

Not much different than if Samsung or Apple made their first car- don’t expect them to get it right the first try.

 

[Freeewilly]

Not much different than if Samsung or Apple made their first car- don’t expect them to get it right the first try.

That's the scary part. SU7 is the first car Xiaomi ever build, we can argue all we want comparing against Tayan, but that's just say SU7 is okay, but not great.

It took Taycan 6 years to improve from J1.1 to J1.2. Xiaomi is going to release refreshed version this year, 2 years after original. Chinese are improving at light speed comparing to Western car companies, they work much harder. When American accept the fact they are making a better car, there is no looking back.

Just received a recall notification to bring my Taycan back to the dealer to address ASB2 backup camera software issue. It's unbelievable from a Tesla owner that this can't be resolved by a simple OTA update.

 

[69Mach390]

Chinese are improving at light speed comparing to Western car companies, they work much harder.

I’m not sure that it’s fair to say it’s because they “work harder.”

It’s a factor of the lack of copyright enforcement in China. You don’t have to work as hard when it’s legal to completely rip off the hard work of your competitors.

Innovation takes TIME, imitation is very fast.

It’s also a huge cost savings when you don’t have to be the innovator.

It’s one of the issues of bringing Chinese products in mass to western markets. If there is no profit in innovation……. we stop innovating.

How do think Porsche feels about this Chinese Zoyte SR8?

 

[Freeewilly]

I’m not sure that it’s fair to say it’s because they “work harder.”

It’s a factor of the lack of copyright enforcement in China. You don’t have to work as hard when it’s legal to completely rip off the hard work of your competitors.

Innovation takes TIME, imitation is very fast.

It’s also a huge cost savings when you don’t have to be the innovator.

It’s one of the issues of bringing Chinese products in mass to western markets. If there is no profit in innovation……. we stop innovating.

How do think Porsche feels about this Chinese Zoyte SR8?

I completely agree with you on Chinese copyright culture. The primary reason they are able to catch up on everything they do and make is to copy others. As you said, innovation takes time and money.

Chinese spent the last 30 years to catch up western civilization 100+ year since Industrial Revolution. China has millions of companies, you can always find cheap, low quality, and low end products. I don't think that's going to change.

But you like it or not, we start witnessing their advance on technology like high speed rail, AI, Automobile, smart devices, space and many more. They start leading in key areas of the 21st century. They spend more R&D than American companies.

Chinese work extremely hard, average working hours is from 9AM-9PM, 6 days a week in high tech industry, that's 72 hours a week. It's part of their working culture, no one complaints, it's normal. I consider a hard working person in Space industry, American works 40-hrs a week, but I often take Friday off. I enjoy my work/life balance, but I'm not blind why China is surpassing us in many areas.

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