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Does the Webasto heat the battery?

simcity

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Given the foliage in the rear window, I reckon a sizeable tree limb coming down was to blame…. rather than an angry spouse, construction crane or space alien brick ?
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whitex

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That’s it but the eBay description is nonsense.
I saw a Taycan OTA module on ebay once advertised as an audio amplifier likely because is has "Harman" written on it as manufacturer. People parting these cars out not Taycan experts. Heck, most Taycan drivers would not be able to accurately identify parts from their cars.
 

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I just watched a fairly long and dry video of the heating/cooling systems in a Tesla. Besides the actual heater, they have 16 sources of heat for normal operation, and 6 additional methods for generating heat in less than 10 degrees C ambient operation. It is very impressive - they don't waste any heat energy. They even store the cabin heat into the battery when you park your Tesla in cold weather, and pump the heat back into the cabin when you get back. I bet that helps with range too, not just aerodynamics.



Imagine if Taycans had such technology...
 
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f1eng

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Complete tangent, but the car from this listing seems to have some unusual damage - hit from above in the rear. Parked under a construction crane? Lose load from a braking truck behind? Crazy ex-wife in a forklift? The heater should be all good though.

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The black thing on the boot lid looks like a window box which can be very heavy when watered but I would still think it must have been high up on a tower block to cause that damage.
 


f1eng

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Imagine if Taycans had such technology...
I imagine it does.
Heat balance is probably something they have experience of.

I don’t imagine the few grams of air in the cabin contain many joules but why not? Particularly if it impresses the punters.
 

simcity

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I just watched a fairly long and dry video of the heating/cooling systems in a Tesla. Besides the actual heater, they have 16 sources of heat for normal operation, and 6 additional methods for generating heat in less than 10 degrees C ambient operation. It is very impressive - they don't waste any heat energy. They even store the cabin heat into the battery when you park your Tesla in cold weather, and pump the heat back into the cabin when you get back. I bet that helps with range too, not just aerodynamics.

Imagine if Taycans had such technology...
Fairly sure the Taycan will do a similar range of things with its heating / cooling system.

The self study guide for the e-tron GT has 30 odd pages and some 15 circuit flow diagrams devoted to the various heating and cooling modes and of use of the heat pump function, AC circuit, and HV heater, including the battery, drives and power electronics as heat sources variously to move heat and cool things about the place.
 

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I’ve observed the heater turn on and off correlated with preconditioning the battery. With a cold battery/car, the heater current will ramp up after about 1-2min setting a DCFC as your destination and turn off as soon as you cancel the nav.
Porsche Taycan Does the Webasto heat the battery? IMG_0857


If the car is warm though, I have also observed the battery preconditioning happen without the heater current turning on so it must also be able to scavenge heat from other parts of the system.
 


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I imagine it does.
Heat balance is probably something they have experience of.

I don’t imagine the few grams of air in the cabin contain many joules but why not? Particularly if it impresses the punters.
Tesla can heat up the cabin just as fast as the Taycan without the 7.5KW webasto heater (since it does not have such a heat source at all). From what I read here, Taycan cannot heat up the cabin at all if the webasto is broken, so apparently the Taycan system is cannot even produce the "joules needed handle the few grams of air". Perhaps being able to heat the car even if some of the components of the system die is considered an unnecessary showing off to the punters? ;)
 

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Fairly sure the Taycan will do a similar range of things with its heating / cooling system.

The self study guide for the e-tron GT has 30 odd pages and some 15 circuit flow diagrams devoted to the various heating and cooling modes and of use of the heat pump function, AC circuit, and HV heater, including the battery, drives and power electronics as heat sources variously to move heat and cool things about the place.
Comparing the system in the self study guide to the Tesla system (see 3 part guide below), the eTron GT/Taycan system is fairly primitive. For one, Taycan would not need the webasto heater at all (note that Tesla system does not have a resistive heater, and with 16 heat sources it's fairly redundant - failure of one or even more does not leave your cabin without heat).





I'm not a fanboy of any company, but I can definitely recognize when someone has a much better solution a problem.
 
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simcity

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Comparing the system in the self study guide to the Tesla system (see 3 part guide below), the eTron GT/Taycan system is fairly primitive. For one, Taycan would not need the webasto heater at all (note that Tesla system does not have a resistive heater, and with 16 heat sources it's fairly redundant - failure of one or even more does not leave your cabin without heat).





I'm not a fanboy of any company, but I can definitely recognize when someone has a much better solution a problem.
Yeah doesn’t come as a massive shock that Tesla have built a better mousetrap here, you’d possibly consider this to be their third “generation” of the HVAC system with Octovalve etc. Potentially compared against what we have in the e-tron GT / Taycan very much a first generation attempt.

When it comes to resistive cabin heaters, Tesla of course no stranger to those and ironically I had a failed resistive heater after 2 years in our Model X. Of course in the dead of winter.

Just waiting patiently now for the Taycan Webasto to commit similar hari kari ?
 
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For the record, the Model Y was the first Tesla to have a heat pump. And while it is true it doesn’t have a resistive heater as such, when it’s too cold for the heat pump, they turn the motors and inverters into resistive heaters by running them in a lossy mode that causes them to get hot. Which is both ingenious and scary at the same time. I don’t know but my guess is that Tesla has patents for that. One way or the other, if it is cold enough, an EV is going to need some amount of resistive heating.
 
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simcity

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when it’s too cold for the heat pump, they turn the motors and inverters into resistive heaters by running them in a lossy mode that causes them to get hot.
Talking about getting rid of extras; Hyundai / Kia on the E-GMP platform use the motor drives / inverters to do the 400/800V step up when charging on a 400V DC charge point like Tesla Superchargers. Saves on another box.

I think the model 3 had a heat pump before the Y. Certainly the initial Fremont built cars we got here were fitted with resistive cabin heaters. At some point they swapped - I think it was late 2020 to heat pumps. We now get our RHD Teslas all via Shanghai here.
 

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For the record, the Model Y was the first Tesla to have a heat pump. And while it is true it doesn’t have a resistive heater as such, when it’s too cold for the heat pump, they turn the motors and inverters into resistive heaters by running them in a lossy mode that causes them to get hot. Which is both ingenious and scary at the same time. I don’t know but my guess is that Tesla has patents for that. One way or the other, if it is cold enough, an EV is going to need some amount of resistive heating.
Teslas have multiple such resistive heaters, so does the Taycan except it doesn't have a way to use them as such. In the first video I posted, look for the 6 alternate heat sources which they use when needed (when temps drop under 10C IIRC, so no, they don't "overheat" to generate heat, they simply bring them to an operating temperature). From the video:
  • 37:11 Operation below 10 degrees C (50 F) with 6 additional heat sources
  • 37:30 Additional Heat Source 1. The Air-Conditioning Compressor operating in Lossy Mode
  • 39:00 Additional Heat Source 2. The Blower Motor operating in Lossy Mode
  • 39:27 Additional Heat Sources 3 and 4. The Front and Rear Drive Unit Inverters operating in Lossy Mode
  • 39:58 Heat Sources 5 and 6. The Front and Rear Drive Unit Stators operating in Lossy Mode
Tesla system has so many redundancies for the heat sources, and it is ultra optimized for efficiency and limiting waste of energy. In a Taycan one heater dies and you cannot drive the car since you cabin is frozen and you cannot see out the windows. Additionally, should you park your car in the deep freeze cold (since you cannot drive it) the battery has no way to prevent itself from freezing to death.

Overall it's a much more refined system. Porsche has ways to go to get there. What worries me is that such refined system requires solid software, something Porsche is even further behind on. It kind of reminds me of modern aircraft vs. traditional aircraft. The traditional aircraft were really good at the solid engineering, solid mechanical controls, were inherently stable, etc. but the newer aircraft got to fly-by-wire, which allowed them to be more maneuverable, fly more efficiently, have more efficient control surfaces (which require constant computer adjustment faster than any human could do, but such inherent instability allows for ultra quick maneuverability), and resulted in much more capable aircraft. Porsche needs to catch up if they want to keep (regain?) their refined engineering excellence crown. Tesla is not perfect by any means, there is lots of room to improve on what Tesla is doing, which companies like Porsche should seize. Lead, don't follow, right?

PS> Perhaps Porsche should wait for Lucid to stumble and acquire them cheap. I hear they have great battery and drive train engineering, just don't know how to make good looking cars, make them last, or optimize costs. Lucid already beats Tesla on horsepower and range, and even battery charge profile (but again, you pay for it, which with Porsche it's less of an issue).
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