Tesla opened up in Netherlands

[daveo4EV]

Does anyone know how much it is to get the 150KW charger retrofitted ?

at this time my local service center in the US says it's not a retrofit option…factory installed only.

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[daveo4EV]

Im hearing in Switzerland too but no idea how to use the app. App wants me to add a Tesla ?

Netherlands only at the moment for a limited pilot…but it will gradually open up wider and wider assuming it goes well in the Netherlands…

 

[daveo4EV]

In Belgium for the CT it is included. Is it the same for other markets?

you'll be limited to 50 kW maximum charge rate if you do not have teh 400V/150 kW charging option.

my advise regarding this feature has always been to get it - cause it was cheap and you never know when you're going to need it - and it's not a retrofit option.

 

[daveo4EV]

Does that mean we all need to tick the 150kw DC onboard booster option?

no - but you'll be limited to 50 kW if you don't have the option.

 

[daveo4EV]

It wouldn't be a big deal if the Electrify America stations actually functioned properly...

I'll humbly disagree - in that even if the EA stations are working (which is not often) they have too few stalls - vs. superchargers which tend to have 8, 12, 16, 24, 32 stalls…or more.

it's just a better network all around.

 

[McgR]

you'll be limited to 50 kW maximum charge rate if you do not have teh 400V/150 kW charging option.

my advise regarding this feature has always been to get it - cause it was cheap and you never know when you're going to need it - and it's not a retrofit option.

Maybe that’s why it comes as standard in Belgium.

 

[riburn3]

I'll humbly disagree - in that even if the EA stations are working (which is not often) they have too few stalls - vs. superchargers which tend to have 8, 12, 16, 24, 32 stalls…or more.

it's just a better network all around.

BIG TRUE. More than doubling our fast charging options is a huge deal and makes road trips easier with added peace of mind. This is a huge deal particularly in the Western US outside of California where charging options aren't nearly as dense and often hundreds of miles apart.

Clearly the EA network will be priority for us with its faster speeds and free charging for a few years, but since it has proven inconsistent (to put it mildly), more options are always welcome.

If an EA charger wasn't working before, it meant either hoping you have enough range to get to the next station, which isn't likely, or finding level 2 charging and delaying your trip several hours or even a day. With Tesla chargers being nearby EA charger very often, we will hopefully soon have a reliable alternative.

 

[daveo4EV]

frankly I'm still confused as to why this is even an option - it's really really bad that porsche even produces vehicles in this configuration (400V/50kW) - teh Audi eTron comes with it standard…and it's a $460 option - so it can't really cost that much to Porsche - probably save more money simplifying the supply chain to only have one part to source/install/inventory - Porsche charges more money to add "sports sound" than this hardware options

it's quite frankly wrong, stupid, confusing, not customer focused and really shouldn't be an option on a premium product like the Taycan.

 

[madeyong]

frankly I'm still confused as to why this is even an option - it's really really bad that porsche even produces vehicles in this configuration (400V/50kW) - teh Audi eTron comes with it standard…and it's a $460 option - so it can't really cost that much to Porsche - probably save more money simplifying the supply chain to only have one part to source/install/inventory - Porsche charges more money to add "sports sound" than this hardware options

it's quite frankly wrong, stupid, confusing, not customer focused and really shouldn't be an option on a premium product like the Taycan.

I don’t own a Tesla but I understand some of their Superchargers can put out up to 250kW. Is there any particular reason why the 400V/150kW upgraded charger option for our Taycan is limited to 150kW when there are 400V networks that deliver greater power? Just wondering.

 

[daveo4EV]

I don’t own a Tesla but I understand some of their Superchargers can put out up to 250kW. Is there any particular reason why the 400V/150kW upgraded charger option for our Taycan is limited to 150kW when there are 400V networks that deliver greater power? Just wondering.

400/150 kW is an existing standard that was legacy - by the time this Standard was adopted 800V chargers were defined and spec'd and that's the trend - so between the time a lot of 400V/50 kW chargers got installed no one had gotten around to installing 400/150kW chargers - and if they were going to install a new location or upgrade an old location you'd move to 800/350 kW chargers…

so it's an "awkward" fit for infrastructure roll out plans (basically the industry moved from 400/50 to 400/150 to 800/350 too quickly… such that 800/350 covers all the previous standards and is the new standard and has actual vehicles that will support it…

400V/250 kW is _ONLY_ Tesla and only briefly and really only makes sense in the context existing infrastructure (of which Tesla has the most) - given the choice it would be better to move to 800V/350 kW but Tesla has an existing fleet of 400V vehicles, so moving to 800V systems makes no sense for their installed base…

basically the reason all this is sooooo confusing is it's actually evolving sooooo quickly barely anyone has time to keep up and several things need to align:

• there has to be a published standard
• there has to be vehicles adoption of the standard
• there has to be equipment that can be installed that implements the standard
• then you have the logistics of actually getting building permits/locations
• construction crews
• schedule
• working with the local power company to get the "feeds" to support this type of stuff
• negotiation with the local commercial site owners to allocate space in the parking lots to install the equipment

we've gone from:

• 2011 25 kW Chademo
• 2013 120 kW Tesla Supercharger V1
• 2014 50 kW Chademo/CCS
• 2014 160 kW Tesla Supercharger V2
• 2015 Mission-e Announcement with 800V/350 kW charging
• 2016 250 kW Tesla Supercharger V3 (Model 3)
• Various vendors deploying Chademo/CCS 50 kW 400V chargers
• ChargePoint deploying Chademo/CCS 62 kW 400V chargers
• 2018 consent decree EA deploying 800V/150 and/or 350 kW chargers
• 2018/2091 Audi eTron with 400V/150 kW support
• 2019 Taycan ships with 800/270 kW support
  • 400V/150 kW optional
• 2020/2021 - Ford, Chevy, Lucid Air, Rivian + others announcing support for 800V/100-300 kW support

where was there time to develop an installed base of 400V/150 kW chargers??? And if you were a charging network why would you spend the money to do so when you can/should just install a 800V/350 kW charger since that's the where the puck is going to be…

Great player don't skate to where the puck is - they skate to where the puck is going to be…

400V/150 kW was NEVER were the puck was going to be…

800/900V 400-500 kW is where it's going to be…and the hardware being deployed today can support that type of stuff…

 

[madeyong]

400/150 kW is an existing standard that was legacy - by the time this Standard was adopted 800V chargers were defined and spec'd and that's the trend - so between the time a lot of 400V/50 kW chargers got installed no one had gotten around to installing 400/150kW chargers - and if they were going to install a new location or upgrade an old location you'd move to 800/350 kW chargers…

so it's an "awkward" fit for infrastructure roll out plans (basically the industry moved from 400/50 to 400/150 to 800/350 too quickly… such that 800/350 covers all the previous standards and is the new standard and has actual vehicles that will support it…

400V/250 kW is _ONLY_ Tesla and only briefly and really only makes sense in the context existing infrastructure (of which Tesla has the most) - given the choice it would be better to move to 800V/350 kW but Tesla has an existing fleet of 400V vehicles, so moving to 800V systems makes no sense for their installed base…

basically the reason all this is sooooo confusing is it's actually evolving sooooo quickly barely anyone has time to keep up and several things need to align:

• there has to be a published standard
• there has to be vehicles adoption of the standard
• there has to be equipment that can be installed that implements the standard
• then you have the logistics of actually getting building permits/locations
• construction crews
• schedule
• working with the local power company to get the "feeds" to support this type of stuff
• negotiation with the local commercial site owners to allocate space in the parking lots to install the equipment

we've gone from:

• 2011 25 kW Chademo
• 2013 120 kW Tesla Supercharger V1
• 2014 50 kW Chademo/CCS
• 2014 160 kW Tesla Supercharger V2
• 2015 Mission-e Announcement with 800V/350 kW charging
• 2016 250 kW Tesla Supercharger V3 (Model 3)
• Various vendors deploying Chademo/CCS 50 kW 400V chargers
• ChargePoint deploying Chademo/CCS 62 kW 400V chargers
• 2018 consent decree EA deploying 800V/150 and/or 350 kW chargers
• 2018/2091 Audi eTron with 400V/150 kW support
• 2019 Taycan ships with 800/270 kW support
  • 400V/150 kW optional
• 2020/2021 - Ford, Chevy, Lucid Air, Rivian + others announcing support for 800V/100-300 kW support

where was there time to develop an installed base of 400V/150 kW chargers??? And if you were a charging network why would you spend the money to do so when you can/should just install a 800V/350 kW charger since that's the where the puck is going to be…

Great player don't skate to where the puck is - they skate to where the puck is going to be…

400V/150 kW was NEVER were the puck was going to be…

800/900V 400-500 kW is where it's going to be…and the hardware being deployed today can support that type of stuff…

Good stuff, Dave. Thanks. That all makes sense to me but I guess my question is why did Porsche handicap tbe Taycan’s ability to DC fast charge on 400V architecture by limiting to 150kW with their upgrade option? I appreciate that Tesla is really the only provider that can deliver in excess of 150kW at 400V but I wonder if there are politics at play where Porsche saw Tesla eventually opening up their superchargers and did not want to cannabilize EA as being the king of high speed charging for the Taycan (although 350/270kW still beats the Tesla 250kW). Or maybe the tech was too expensive and/or it was overkill to increase 400V charging speed over 150kW when users can only get a benefit from Tesla at some point in the undetermined future.

 

[daveo4EV]

why did Porsche handicap tbe Taycan’s ability to DC fast charge on 400V architecture by limiting to 150kW with their upgrade option?

I'm not quite sure - if I had to guess I"m thinking multiple engineering committees and no clear direction - and then it all gets locked and you look back and some things don't make sense

Mission-e Announced 2015
shipped 2019
4 years development

there were probably some awkward moments in design/engineering/supply-chain/options-development and so and and so forth…

I simply think this is "how the sausage is made" showing through to the final product…

I would anticipate future products will be all in on the 800V/350 kW stuff and now that charger infrastructure is actually being built out it will be a foot-note…

I think it's a bit like Porsche documenting that the maximum L2 AC charge rate for the Taycan in North America is 9.6 kw - when it's demonstrably 11 kw (48 amps) like _ALL_ the other Taycan's sold outside North America…

it's a bit of sausage making process showing from behind the curtain…

 

[NC_Taycan]

Did Porsche handicap the Taycan, or see an opportunity for yet another profit item...?

 

[Toodal00]

Did Porsche handicap the Taycan, or see an opportunity for yet another profit item...?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[sakkaro]

Teslas in the US and Korea have their proprietary ports, I think. I would love to know how Tesla would open up their chargers on said locations to other EV brands.

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