Turbo vs Turbo S

[andb]

Really wanted to buy this Turbo S but best discount they could make was 2k, lol
Indeed many great deals on cars, recession is coming!

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[Rik_CT4s]

Really wanted to buy this Turbo S but best discount they could make was 2k, lol
Indeed many great deals on cars, recession is coming!

I just traded my 4s CT in for a TS CT, but no regrets. Enjoying every day, full options.
4s CT traded in around end august. Still for sale as well as many others. Not limited to Porsche though.
In any case, personally I would not trade again now. Just drive it and enjoy until better times.
But if you are in the market for a car now, wow, great timing.
Again, no regrets on the trade, really 2 different cars having experienced both. Tomorrow new Vossen 22 inch to be installed, just make it your own and enjoy every day.

 

[andb]

Yeah, I'm not looking for more power, Turbo is more than enough. I'll drive it for two years and probably get a 4S facelift if range will be better or I7 M70.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

I just traded my 4s CT in for a TS CT, but no regrets. Enjoying every day, full options.
4s CT traded in around end august. Still for sale as well as many others. Not limited to Porsche though.
In any case, personally I would not trade again now. Just drive it and enjoy until better times.
But if you are in the market for a car now, wow, great timing.
Again, no regrets on the trade, really 2 different cars having experienced both. Tomorrow new Vossen 22 inch to be installed, just make it your own and enjoy every day.

On top, I do believe that eventually these cars can be tuned properly, and as such the 600amp inverters front and back will get the most out of them...I am waiting for that moment. Currently, the GTS and Turbo can be tuned to around 800hp. However, these 2 have 300amp inverters in front, as such I think they need a bit more time to optimize a tune to get the most out of the more powerfull inverter. Time will tell if the Turbo S can be more fun than it already is over other trims. I bet it will be coming out soon, perhaps even Porsche will come up with other paid upgrades in due time. Can't wait this to happen.

 

[mystermykee]

...Porsche will come up with other paid upgrades in due time. Can't wait this to happen.

I sure hope Porsche doesn't go down this road. This type of mentality feels so much like Gran Turismo/NFS video game like--leave that for brands like Tesla. Don't try to squeeze a few more $$$ on top of the 20-30k I'm already paying in options. Give me all the power you think is warranted for a particular trim/price point. If I feel like I need more power, I"ll buy a higher trim or go 3rd party.

 

[whitex]

If I feel like I need more power, I"ll buy a higher trim

Is that really better for anyone? Let's use some hypothetical numbers:

If you trade a 4S for a TTS after a year of ownership:

1. You take a large depreciation hit on the trade of the 4S (say $50K)
2. You spend another $50K (price difference) on a TS
3. Your total upgrade test is $100K
4. Porsche makes profit on the TS (say $40K)
5. You helped lower Taycan residual values by providing yet another used Taycan onto the market

In software only upgrade scenario:

1. You pay $60K - 40% less than upgrading by trading
2. Porsche makes $60K - 50% more than if you just traded up
3. No extra used Taycan on the market

It seems the software upgrade path is a win-win for everyone except for people looking for a bargain on a used 4S.

 

[mystermykee]

Is that really better for anyone?

If you trade a 4S for a TTS after a year of ownership:

1. You take a large depreciation hit on the trade of the 4S (say $50K)
2. You spend another $50K (price difference) on a TS
3. Your total upgrade test is $100K
4. Porsche makes profit on the TS (say $40K)
5. You helped lower Taycan residual values by providing yet another used Taycan onto the market

In software only upgrade scenario:

1. You pay $60K - 40% less than upgrading by trading
2. Porsche makes $60K - 50% more than if you just traded up
3. No extra used Taycan on the market

It seems the software upgrade path is a win-win for everyone except for people looking for a bargain on a used 4S.

Is it better for everyone? Possibly? Who makes Taycan ownership decisions based on what's better for the Taycan community. I didn't think about any one of you

$60k?! For a power upgrade?! Drop 60k yet I still have the same car, same options, same mileage, same battery SoH, but....more power? Eh, that's a hard one to stomach. Who buys an OEM offered power upgrade say three four years after ownership? I think most if not all, would check that option right on the spot. At that point for the most part, a Taycan, is a Taycan, is a Taycan.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

I sure hope Porsche doesn't go down this road. This type of mentality feels so much like Gran Turismo/NFS video game like--leave that for brands like Tesla. Don't try to squeeze a few more $$$ on top of the 20-30k I'm already paying in options. Give me all the power you think is warranted for a particular trim/price point. If I feel like I need more power, I"ll buy a higher trim or go 3rd party.

Agreed, but I think if they unlock some power they will charge. But hope they do not of course.
But what I mean to say, there is more power to be had seeing what aftermarket tuners (MTM, HGP Turbo...) get out of this car, and then the front inverter on the TS seems not to be addressed yet (as it seems turbo, turbo s, gts trim all get the same powerof about 800hp). According to Porsche overboost on a Turbo S is only for 2.5seconds ....perhaps the other trims as well.
So indeed the diff with a Turbo trim is minor at the moment, but there is more in it as TS has different cooling set up as well.
Let them start with unlocking power, so the Turbo gets 680hp permanently and the TS 761hp with 1050Nm torque. That will do for me too. Hope this is happening. One would think why not....perhaps they have been carefull in the beginning, but as more data is available they know it won't break cars, just costs tires
Fingers crossed.

 

[Murph7355]

..... Hopefully it doesn’t depreciate like a lead balloon now that I own it! ?

It’s going to.

The key thing is simply not to look. Enjoy using the car, and plan to use it for a while. They're great cars.

Porsche has miscalculated and been hit with a near perfect storm. Plus the market overall is returning to some semblance of normal.

(The bigger immediate concern is Porsche continuing to dump stock on OPCs. They need to tread very carefully as completely wiping residuals on the Taycan will infect the rest of the range).

 

[f1eng]

Let them start with unlocking power, so the Turbo gets 680hp permanently and the TS 761hp with 1050Nm torque. That will do for me too. Hope this is happening. One would think why not....perhaps they have been carefull in the beginning, but as more data is available they know it won't break cars, just costs tires
Fingers crossed.

Electric motors have very different characteristics to IC engines.

When you design an IC engine the power is defined by a power curve. You can't get more power and if you try to get more power from it it simply stalls.

With an electric motor the power curve is a variable and in reality is set by the required duty cycle.
How much power and for how long is temperature and durability limited.

My old electrical engineering teacher had as a young man worked on the traction system for the London underground. Our exam questions were often based on calculations he had done in working out the duty cycle from these trains, such as when there is a gradient between stations we had to calculate the temperature rise in the motor from actual data.
What was clear was that the limit was how hot the engineers were prepared to let the motor get before reducing the power they were taking from it to let it cool. It was not permanent and requires a different mind set to understand than IC engines.

There is no equivalent load cycle for any IC engined vehicle, road or train, if you have a 500hp engine that is it, try to use more it stalls. With electric you can take more than 500hp out of a "500hp" motor for a while - usually seconds or if not too much maybe a few minutes - before doing damage.

I have no idea what load cycle the various Taycan specs have been designed to but what I am quite sure of is that the peak powers are just that, and only available for a limited time before damage occurs and this will be why it isn't permanent.

Imagining the 600A front inverter could be used all the time if fitted, or that the rated "boost" power could be available permanently is delusional and based on applying IC engined thinking to an electric motor which is totally invalid.

I can see how maybe a GTS could be re-programmed to have the same steady power as Turbo and Turbo S though.

The relevant power of our cars is the quoted power without overboost

 

[bn8959]

I had an interesting conversation with an engineer when working on the development of a deep-sea turbine. They had a control system to manage the pitch of the blades, which were driven by an electric motor, which was about the size of 2 shoe boxes. They were driving it with 400v and 400 to 600 amps - which was about 5 times over the rated spec for the motor - but the manufacturer said it was absolutely fine, as long as the motor didnt overheat. Since the turbine blades only needed short bursts of movement to adjust the pitch, this was fine. Shows you can massively 'overdrive' electric motors, as long as you have thermal management.

 

[Caraholic]

Agreed, but I think if they unlock some power they will charge. But hope they do not of course.
But what I mean to say, there is more power to be had seeing what aftermarket tuners (MTM, HGP Turbo...) get out of this car, and then the front inverter on the TS seems not to be addressed yet (as it seems turbo, turbo s, gts trim all get the same powerof about 800hp). According to Porsche overboost on a Turbo S is only for 2.5seconds ....perhaps the other trims as well.
So indeed the diff with a Turbo trim is minor at the moment, but there is more in it as TS has different cooling set up as well.
Let them start with unlocking power, so the Turbo gets 680hp permanently and the TS 761hp with 1050Nm torque. That will do for me too. Hope this is happening. One would think why not....perhaps they have been carefull in the beginning, but as more data is available they know it won't break cars, just costs tires
Fingers crossed.

Really hoping for more than this from a turbo owners perspective. If it’s only this amount I think Porsche should offer it for free as it’s really just giving us full launch control power. If they take it beyond that I am fine with a fee but it needs to be a reasonable one.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

Electric motors have very different characteristics to IC engines.

When you design an IC engine the power is defined by a power curve. You can't get more power and if you try to get more power from it it simply stalls.

With an electric motor the power curve is a variable and in reality is set by the required duty cycle.
How much power and for how long is temperature and durability limited.

My old electrical engineering teacher had as a young man worked on the traction system for the London underground. Our exam questions were often based on calculations he had done in working out the duty cycle from these trains, such as when there is a gradient between stations we had to calculate the temperature rise in the motor from actual data.
What was clear was that the limit was how hot the engineers were prepared to let the motor get before reducing the power they were taking from it to let it cool. It was not permanent and requires a different mind set to understand than IC engines.

There is no equivalent load cycle for any IC engined vehicle, road or train, if you have a 500hp engine that is it, try to use more it stalls. With electric you can take more than 500hp out of a "500hp" motor for a while - usually seconds or if not too much maybe a few minutes - before doing damage.

I have no idea what load cycle the various Taycan specs have been designed to but what I am quite sure of is that the peak powers are just that, and only available for a limited time before damage occurs and this will be why it isn't permanent.

Imagining the 600A front inverter could be used all the time if fitted, or that the rated "boost" power could be available permanently is delusional and based on applying IC engined thinking to an electric motor which is totally invalid.

I can see how maybe a GTS could be re-programmed to have the same steady power as Turbo and Turbo S though.

The relevant power of our cars is the quoted power without overboost

Thank you for helping in the understanding of this (for me) complex matter.
MTM and HGP Turbo in Germany do unlock the overboost already permanently, while keeping the Porsche systems (cooling etc) untouched. It seems possible to "tune" them, but agreed definitely at a risk (overheating etc).
Still curious to see if Porsche would perhaps unlock a bit or let the overboost run for a bit longer...having said that, on the other hand, why would they as it increases risk (for them to warrant).

 

[mystermykee]

Agreed, but I think if they unlock some power they will charge. But hope they do not of course.
But what I mean to say, there is more power to be had seeing what aftermarket tuners (MTM, HGP Turbo...) get out of this car, and then the front inverter on the TS seems not to be addressed yet (as it seems turbo, turbo s, gts trim all get the same powerof about 800hp). According to Porsche overboost on a Turbo S is only for 2.5seconds ....perhaps the other trims as well.
So indeed the diff with a Turbo trim is minor at the moment, but there is more in it as TS has different cooling set up as well.
Let them start with unlocking power, so the Turbo gets 680hp permanently and the TS 761hp with 1050Nm torque. That will do for me too. Hope this is happening. One would think why not....perhaps they have been carefull in the beginning, but as more data is available they know it won't break cars, just costs tires
Fingers crossed.

A scenario I'd hate to see is if a Turbo can safely output 670hp like it does now, Porsche handicaps it to 500hp, but makes you pay $$$ if you want the full 670hp. Porsche is already doing that with the GTS. Same powertrain as the Turbo but software limited HP. No way Porsche is going to have an option in the configurator to get that power. There would be nothing setting apart Porsche's famous "turbo" trim level.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

A scenario I'd hate to see is if a Turbo can safely output 670hp like it does now, Porsche handicaps it to 500hp, but makes you pay $$$ if you want the full 670hp. Porsche is already doing that with the GTS. Same powertrain as the Turbo but software limited HP. No way Porsche is going to have an option in the configurator to get that power. There would be nothing setting apart Porsche's famous "turbo" trim level.

Perhaps just unlocking the boost for a longer period of time may be plausible or max rated output for the trim longer available....
Hence, for the TS that would be 761hp continously....and for the Turbo 680hp thereabouts. Nothing wrong with that, but will that happen?....they could rather easily add that in without disturbing the trim levels. It is still max output as advertised, just available for longer periods.
Hope that will happen though. Now I get the maximum power only for about 2.5 seconds.

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