Welcome to Normal Depreciation

[whitex]

Indeed.

But on the other hand you have the ability to carry 5 people, heating the backsides of four of them, electric folding wing mirrors, adaptive cruise, blind spot assistance......not on £100k cars.

Etc

I think the point is that if you're looking for the options you want in a used car, that primarily affects your decision to buy or not to buy, rather than to pay more money. So for example if you want 4+1 with heated seats, you will not buy a car without it, but won't pay $10K more because the car had $20K in options, most of which you don't care for.

In other words, if you pay $20K in options for your new build, a future buyer may want $2K of those options, but won't even pay you $2K extra for the car. Similar true of colors. Black and white are most popular colors, but that doesn't mean black and white used cars fetch higher prices, they just move quicker.

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[Jonathan S.]

^ Personally, for a used 4CT, I would pay $Xk for the same options that I would spec on a build order.

The problem though is that finding a used 4CT that has what I want yet doesn't have what I don't want (as opposed to what I am indifferent about) seems to be impossible so far.

Here's my take on it:

https://tinyurl.com/Used4CT​

Feedback definitely welcome on that first draft of the spreadsheet.

My initial thoughts:

• At least for asking prices (no idea about actual final selling prices), resale value is very strong relative to original MSRP (when available), even with significant mileage.
• Listings at Autotrader and dealerships never provide the build sheet or window stickers. Even emailed requests do not necessarily work immediately. (e.g., "We do not have a window sticker readily available. I can ask our inventory manager to see if we can locate one. The previous email I sent you showed where you can find the majority of the features of this car. Let me see what I can dig up for you." -- and -- "I have recorded a personal video presentation for you, introducing myself and highlighting the product you are interested in.")
• I can understand how an original buyer wanted a favorite flashy exterior color and/or a daring red interior, even if it narrows the potential resale market (i.e., to exclude myself) ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer lives in a warm climate and hence didn't spec the 2+1 (for skis) and/or a heated steering wheel (for numb fingers after cold ski mountaineering outings), even though those options are inexpensive and would broaden the potential resale market ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer might have no plans to mount cargo carrier cross bars so didn't spec the roof rails, especially since they do change the appearance ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer didn't spec the 150 since VAG CCS1 access to the ~12k Tesla V3 250kW Superchargers still isn’t available, even though it’s the only hope in the near-term for reliable CCS1 DCFC, and lack of the 150 option means 50kW when/if that happy day arrives that VAG capitulates to Elon's demands (whatever they might be) …
• … but, no Premium, HUD, and/or ACC – really, you spend well over $100k on a car, yet omit options that cost relatively little (especially on builds that have thousands of dollars in cosmetic treatments that don’t impress anyone, whether in your car, or in the secondary market), some of which are found on base Subaru builds!

 

[whitex]

^ Personally, for a used 4CT, I would pay $Xk for the same options that I would spec on a build order.

The problem though is that finding a used 4CT that has what I want yet doesn't have what I don't want (as opposed to what I am indifferent about) seems to be impossible so far.

Here's my take on it:

https://tinyurl.com/Used4CT​

Feedback definitely welcome on that first draft of the spreadsheet.

My initial thoughts:

• At least for asking prices (no idea about actual final selling prices), resale value is very strong relative to original MSRP (when available), even with significant mileage.
• Listings at Autotrader and dealerships never provide the build sheet or window stickers. Even emailed requests do not necessarily work immediately. (e.g., "We do not have a window sticker readily available. I can ask our inventory manager to see if we can locate one. The previous email I sent you showed where you can find the majority of the features of this car. Let me see what I can dig up for you." -- and -- "I have recorded a personal video presentation for you, introducing myself and highlighting the product you are interested in.")
• I can understand how an original buyer wanted a favorite flashy exterior color and/or a daring red interior, even if it narrows the potential resale market (i.e., to exclude myself) ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer lives in a warm climate and hence didn't spec the 2+1 (for skis) and/or a heated steering wheel (for numb fingers after cold ski mountaineering outings), even though those options are inexpensive and would broaden the potential resale market ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer might have no plans to mount cargo carrier cross bars so didn't spec the roof rails, especially since they do change the appearance ...
• ... and, I can understand how an original buyer didn't spec the 150 since VAG CCS1 access to the ~12k Tesla V3 250kW Superchargers still isn’t available, even though it’s the only hope in the near-term for reliable CCS1 DCFC, and lack of the 150 option means 50kW when/if that happy day arrives that VAG capitulates to Elon's demands (whatever they might be) …
• … but, no Premium, HUD, and/or ACC – really, you spend well over $100k on a car, yet omit options that cost relatively little (especially on builds that have thousands of dollars in cosmetic treatments that don’t impress anyone, whether in your car, or in the secondary market), some of which are found on base Subaru builds!

When specing a new car, practically any option you could add, you will never recover that 100% of the money on the resale. Some you can recover more, some less, some none at all (also depends of when you resale, after 4 years most of the options are worth almost nothing) but never 100%. So the reason people don’t spec options you might like is because they don’t care to pay for them knowing they will pay interest on that money and never recover it all back. When I was looking for a used or inventory Turbo CT, there were very few around, but I was surprised that none of them at the time had the performance package included. If you spring for a Turbo, why not add RAS, PTV, PDCC? But I know that’s just my take, obviously there were people, or even dealers, specing Turbos without performance package. After all, if it’s an option, Porsche marketing decided not everyone wants to pay for it. Same for all the options you think should be obvious, they are obvious to you, but not to everyone, hence they are options, not included in the trim. Porsche marketing also cares about resale value by the way, so I’m sure they consider that when deciding on options and packages.

 

[Jonathan S.]

^ I agree that specing a build with a focus on resale value doesn’t make much sense. I’m just surprised that anyone paying ~$120k for a car would not want (even if more on a “why not” whim, which was my justification for the i4 M50 wireless ph charger, drive recorder, and eSim-something-or-other) the neat-o tech that’s available – and standard for some trims -- on car models for about half the price. Or even for about the quarter of the price with some of those missing options.

(Also, although I’m definitely not in the market for a Turbo CT, I’m surprised that purchasers of a car that fast and that expensive would not want to add on the RAS, PTV+, and PDCC for max handling prowess.)

Meanwhile, out of 17 current listings for the 4CT I’ve reviewed so far, not a single one has HUD + roof rails + rear seat center pass through. So my other criteria of 150 and a heated steering wheel have not come into play. (Any listing with HUD has also had ACC and Premium, so those two criteria turned out to be superfluous.) But all 15 of those listings have been speced with lots of purely cosmetic options, some only a grand, some many thousands (some of which were hardly driven at all).

Alternatively, for my min build of 2+1, Premium, Tech, rails, 150kW/400V, and heated steering wheel, the current MSRP w/ delivery is $114,120. (Unless it’s gone up since the last time I checked, which it might have!) A typical used 4CT is ~$15k off of that, with a solid year’s worth of mileage (and without my min options).

I’ll keep looking just out of analytical curiosity. But so far my conclusions are that buying a 4CT used makes sense only for a purchaser who needs a car right now, doesn’t care about ADAS and related tech available on cars for about half the price, or gets lucky with a preferred build being listed. (The used discounts though do look far better on the Turbo and Turbo S trims, and I suspect all of those didn’t skim on the techy bits.)

 

[Jonathan S.]

And hot off the press comes the build sheet for used 4CT #18.

Along with verbiage of:

"The Porsche Taycan has been making waves in the automotive industry, combining Porsche's renowned engineering with cutting-edge electric technology. As a discerning customer, your choice reflects a deep understanding of luxury, performance, and sustainability!"​

This one comes quite close.
(The build that is, not the flattery.)
Missing only the 400V charging.
But even reliable 50kW charging at Tesla would be better than being stuck with CCS1 DCFC.

I'd be tempted if I really needed a 4CT now (to the extent anyone ever really needs a 4CT).
Also is equipped with ~$6k of useless yet harmless options.
Unfortunately also has the ~$5k 21" which aren't a great idea for either winter conditions or late-winter/early-spring potholes, so would require ~$2k to buy 20" wheels & TPMS (and tires of course, but I'd be swapping out the OEM for CC2 even on a 20" OEM setup).

Adjusting the listing price of $91.5k for buying aftermarket 20" wheels & TPMS, compared to new that's a discount of ~20%, for 24,350 miles.
So although I haven't run the #s, must be a higher total cost of ownership over a few years for used compared to new.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

@Jonathan S. fwiw my CT4 build comes close to your “ideal” but is missing the extras you expect, and here’s my thought process at the time (and possibly why what you want may never show up):
- I needed an EV ski mobile to replace my MacanS. The 4CT was the obvious choice, in base guise - I hadn’t driven any Taycan (none available) and on paper the performance difference between a 4S and the 4 seemed not worth the premium.
- 20” off-road wheels for strength and a bit of flair over the 19”. The plan was to get 19” as a dedicated wheelset
- roof rails, heated steering, 2+1 rear seats were a must
- Premium package was a good deal (included Bose), was about the only luxury option I selected
- compass (seemed useful) and black model designation (standard was silver) for a muted outlook
- no perf packages (seemed pointless on a base model)
- no rear steering - I prefer simplicity and “pure” feedback/driving experience. I liked the way the Macan handled, and didn’t even conceive the Taycan would not be worlds better. It is, but it’s got a longer wheelbase and you need to take your time turning. Still, no regrets, this wasn’t going to replace my 996 for fun drives.
- no tech stuff - again, on purpose: I disabled lane keep assist within the first 2 hours and never tried it since.

So there you have it. The Taycan was a big mental stretch for me - I had many BMWs and Porsches before, and I never buy new. The Taycan was about 3x the previous max price, but I’m not treating it any differently - it hauls dirt/fencing/wet dog etc. just like its predecessors. Any luxury or high tech (eye roll) options would have been lost on me. 7 months and 11k miles later, I’d have specced it exactly the same. (Oh, and I intend to drive it into the ground. It was made 20 years to the month after my 911, and I’m perfectly happy with this combination.)

 

[f1eng]

Interesting thing about the Porsche options is you can spec a car -without- features that are forced on you by other makes.
For example, most sporty versions of cars have a black interior - boring.
Most upmarket cars have privacy glass as standard - looks like a drug dealer's car and ruins the lines.
Most upmarket cars have adapted cruise which means I don't use cruise any more.
Lots of cars force a glass roof on you as you go up market.
And so forth.

All these things may be considered "must have" by some but the fact I could spec my car without them was a great relief, and finding a used one without black interior, ACC and a glass roof here hasn't happened.

OTOH I wouldn't pay a penny extra for HUD, for example, but would quite like it.

On the one hand I was exasperated by the options list but on the other it allowed me to get a car without the features I very much did not want.

Also, I keep my cars ages if I like them so the cost is less important than being irritated daily by something unwanted. The only thing that irritates me daily about the Taycan is its width (and that almost caused me not to buy one).

 

[whitex]

Lots of cars force a glass roof on you as you go up market.

Including Porsche. There was no metal roof choice for my build.

 

[Jonathan S.]

^ Interesting, thanks for the feedback. Appreciate hearing the perspective of other buyers. (This is such an intriguing analytical exercise!)

So far I’ve entered 23 4CT builds into my spreadsheet. The variation in configurations definitely shows that buyers take advantage of the nearly infinite customization!

The scarcity of HUD is especially striking: only 7 out of 23. I would expect this for the 911, but for such a tech-oriented model, especially appealing to outside traditional Porsche buyers, I would have thought this would be more popular.

I’m also accustomed to how Audi and BMW structure options, bundling the HUD in with ADAS and tech-oriented options.

When I reviewed new listings for the A6 Allroad last summer (95% of which were of course build orders for other customers, but I eventually found a perfect vehicle for me) and the i4 M50 this spring (before I got an allocation only about a week after placing a deposit – lucky, since others were waiting more like a year, but also put in some strategizing), plenty of builds skipped the equivalent of the Technology package, yet it was hardly rare.

The funny part about that is how those Audi and BMW forums are full of drivers posting pictures of their vehicles, which -- aside from the rare custom paint job – look exactly like all the other ones! The Porsche cosmetic options by contrast are truly staggering in their customization.

And even aside from that, as was previously noted here, you can spec a build with exactly what you want yet with absolutely nothing that you don’t want.

Which means that a used 4CT with everything I want is hopeless … wait, what, oh my, check this one out: ~$24k in options, *ALL* of them truly practical, zero for cosmetics (except for exterior color, but just the min $800 for plain white), all the basics plus all sorts of tempting goodies, except … no HUD.

The Kia dealer was almost apologetic. (No, I don’t understand how a vehicle off lease ended up being sold to their sister Hyundai dealer directly – curious if anyone here has any possible scenarios for that?) Sounds like he didn’t know how to pull the window sticker and asked Porsche, which also commented with surprise at the unusual build.

For add’l irony points, the Kia dealer was exceedingly pleasant, the exact opposite of the Kia stereotype. (Maybe they use a different playbook when selling the rare expensive used car?) Sounds like the dealership might be having second thoughts about trying to sell this, as after I lamented the lack of HUD, he added that counter-offers would still be welcome. (I explained though that the HUD omission was alas not a negotiating tactic on my part.)

Meanwhile, in a complete coincidence, I received an email out of the blue from our region’s most abysmal large chain, from which I have received consistently horrible service over the past year regarding inquiries at their various dealers for Audi A6 Allroad, BMW 330ex, BMW i4 M50, and Porsche 4CT. Here’s the core of the exchange, leaving out a few salutations from the dealer, but including my brief replies in their entirety, etc.:

“Are you still interested in a new Taycan 4 Cross Turismo? If you are, I have great news; would you like to know more details?”​

“Potentially yes.”​

“What would be the best number for a short call, so I can share all the details with you?”​

“Email is best.”​

“I understand that some of our clients prefer emailing. But since this is an incoming car, the scope of the details that need to be discussed exceeds the communicative capacities of a medium such as email. We want to make sure we are providing our clients with accurate and detailed information. If you decided to honor us with a few minutes of your time for a short phone conversation, please let me know.”​

“You can email me the build sheet or window sticker.”​

“It's a configurable allocation. You can build it as you like (within the framework of available options on our online configurator).”​

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

@Jonathan S. at this point you’re looking for excuses not to get one, methinks. I can’t possibly imagine HUD being a deal breaker. If it is, order one to your spec. You’ll pay more than a slightly depreciated used one, but then again - used CTs will only go further down in price. And by the sound of it, yours will truly be one of a kind.

 

[whitex]

@Jonathan S. , what @WasserGKuehlt said. You have now found an almost matching used CT (all but HUD) with dealer willing to negotiate, and a configurable allocation which you can configure exactly as you want it. Unless you start adding some specific requirements super unlikely to be met like VIN serial number portion must be a prime number and a palindrome, I think you have in fact ran out of excuses.

 

[f1eng]

The scarcity of HUD is especially striking: only 7 out of 23. I would expect this for the 911, but for such a tech-oriented model, especially appealing to outside traditional Porsche buyers, I would have thought this would be more popular.

FWIW I chose not to spec HUD.

I have it as standard on one of my cars and whilst I quite liked it I didn’t find I liked it enough to spend that much money on the feature, and I didn’t like the look of the dashboard top hood for it.
I also felt that given the seating and dash display positions the information I want is pretty well on my eyeline anyway.

I haven’t missed it in the 7 months I have my Taycan and funnily enough notice I hardly ever look at it on my other car any more, which is odd but that is what has happened.

Of the options I didn’t get, except Bose and matrix lights not being available when my order was fixed, I don’t regret any of them and am satisfied by the standard audio so wouldn’t bother with Bose. I would like to have had the matrix lights but the standard PDLS+ lights are brilliant and I don’t drive as often at night as I used to so am not that disappointed.

I am not sure I would order a Taycan at all today since they have dropped the colours I liked best.

 

[JohnPM]

Came across this car. Porsche Guildford CT4S Demo.

Guildford are pricing to sell at the moment to make space as the dealership is getting a big revamp to the new look.

 

[Jonathan S.]

@Jonathan S. at this point you’re looking for excuses not to get one, methinks. I can’t possibly imagine HUD being a deal breaker. If it is, order one to your spec. You’ll pay more than a slightly depreciated used one, but then again - used CTs will only go further down in price. And by the sound of it, yours will truly be one of a kind.

@Jonathan S. , what @WasserGKuehlt said. You have now found an almost matching used CT (all but HUD) with dealer willing to negotiate, and a configurable allocation which you can configure exactly as you want it. Unless you start adding some specific requirements super unlikely to be met like VIN serial number portion must be a prime number and a palindrome, I think you have in fact ran out of excuses.

Uh oh, the peer pressure is mounting!
(Especially love the VIN reference – has to include my lucky number!)

Unfortunately though, the HUD obsession is for real.

The only exception I would ever consider is the Lucid Air dash – not that I’m in the market for that, but I drove one briefly when we happened to stop by a sustainability fair with EV demos. (Yes, that’s right, I test drove a $138,000 car at a sustainability fair!) Lo and behold, what I’d read on the Lucid forums from all those fans was actually true: the positioning of the Air dash really is different.

Otherwise, when I’ve recently driven cars w/o HUD (e.g., 4CT test drive after driving to the dealer in my wife’s i4, Q5 rental after driving to the airport in the day in my A6ar), I dearly missed the HUD.

I would settle for a more basic HUD w/ just my speed + current speed limit (even though I do value the add’l info), as I often drive on secondary highways where the speed limit changes ever few miles, running the complete range from 30mph to 55mph with pretty much all the 5mph increments.
My experience is that 10+ is safe, but I often forget … is the speed limit 45 and I can do 55? … or is it 35 and I can 45?
(If this sounds annoying, then yes, it is! Two VT towns are especially notorious for funding their entire sheriff-outsourced law enforcement through speeding tickets: one location is a country store that has been closed for a couple decades, and another is a 24/7 school zone even though the school closed about half-a-century ago – seriously.)
Having that differential projected on the screen is so perfect!
(And yes, I can see either HUD just fine even with polarized prescription sunglasses.)

As for ordering my truly unique build, my hesitations are:

• Uncertainty re Tesla Supercharger access next spring.
• Uncertainty re BMW i5 Touring (which will be available in Europe next year, although the details haven’t been announced yet, even though the i5 sedan is already being delivered) for U.S. availability (which obviously isn’t all that promising, since the 5 series wagon hasn’t been available in the U.S. for over a decade) equipped with the larger battery from the i7/iX (which is a combination entirely of my own imagination as the i5 sedan has the same battery as the i4 and hence shorter range than the i4, and the heavier i5 Touring would have even worse range than the i5 sedan, but hey, maybe stuff some extra cells in the i5 Touring rear and raise the cargo floor a bit, right, could happen, maybe?).
• Uncertainty re Audi A6/RS6 etron sedan/hatchback or avant (for every attribute and issue).
• Family plans for cross-country trip next June (first I drive west solo for two weeks, visiting friends and snow-covered mountains along the way, then I pick up my wife and our daughter at LAX to spend a week together driving north, then we drive east for a week to visit various friends and sites), for which we’re definitely using my A6ar, which means having three pricey cars is kind of crazy, especially with only a two-car garage, but could sell the back-up ICE Subaru and put the A6ar in the pull-out parking spot.

That said, I did update my spreadsheet for all 55 4CT listings at Autotrader. Some highlights:

• In general, impressively high listing prices relative to original MSRP, although no idea if those will be the eventual market-clearing prices.
• Two listing prices reflected an ADM relative to original MSRP.
• Competition for the most unrealistic price was fierce, with a runner-up of $2k discount off of original MSRP after ~20k miles, but …
• … the eventual winner was far ahead of everyone else: a private seller of a 2021 4CT with an original MSRP $108.6 yet now with 32k miles asking $95k.
• Autotrader listings rarely include the build sheet or window sticker, and a few listings by Porsche dealers were not at the Porsche.com/USA listings – I wonder if those dealers are intentionally trying to conceal their meager discounts relative to original MSRP?
• HUD although rare is still included in approximately a third of the builds. (Approximate b/c if I noticed a lack of 2+1 or roof rails in the pictures, then I didn’t request the full specs if not publicly listed.)
• Just when I was about to delete the column for ACC since nobody would ever spec HUD yet not ACC, I found two such builds.
• Most confusing build was heated rear seats yet not heated steering wheel.
• Just one lemon (out of 55).
• One 4CT was at a Subaru dealer.

And now that you’ve made it this far, you are rewarded (?) with some potential contenders:

https://buywithberk.com/2022-porsche-taycan-4-cro

• What can possibly go wrong with a dealer whose motto is, “Don’t be a jerk, Buy With Berk!”
• Despite that, the guy definitely gets good reviews on Google (or somehow games it), and actually makes sense that a boat dealer might buy and resell a few cars on the side.
• Build has all my basics, but nothing else of use.
• Price is good at $96k and 4.6k miles.
• But would have to ship from FL and then buy 20” wheels.
• Color is … not me. Although I have to admit, unlike some other flashy colors that I find hideous or obnoxious, mamba is absolutely glorious. But covered in road grim coming back from winter backcountry skiing trips and dead bugs coming back late at night from ski mountaineering outings – actually, I bet it would still look great! Although just not me.

https://www.eurosportsautomotive.com/inventory/2021-porsche-taycan-4-cross-turismo/642298

• Build has my basics, plus a few other options that I value.
• Price at $109k reflects only an $11k discount from the 2021 MSRP w/ 11.8k miles.
• Plus would have to ship from UT and then buy 20” wheels.
• So would if anything cost more than buying my minimum build new.

https://www.infinitiofbellevue.com/inventory/WP0BA2Y19NSA67077/

• Build has my basics, plus several options I value, along with some harmless options of no value to me.
• Straightforward history of a Seattle-area owner who bought from a Seattle-area dealer, then most likely traded in the 4CT for an Infiniti.
• Price at $100k reflects big discount from the 2021 MSRP of $136k, but has 18k miles.
• Plus would have to ship from WA and then buy 20” wheels/tires/TPMS (although the 21” tires have only ~4k miles).
• Might see if the price drops and/or if my insanity increases – to be continued! (If this one were within a drivable distance, I'd be far more tempted.)

 

[forrest]

^ Personally, for a used 4CT, I would pay $Xk for the same options that I would spec on a build order.

The problem though is that finding a used 4CT that has what I want yet doesn't have what I don't want (as opposed to what I am indifferent about) seems to be impossible so far.

Here's my take on it:

https://tinyurl.com/Used4CT​

Feedback definitely welcome on that first draft of the spreadsheet.

Nice work with the detailed analysis, Jonathan! I am in the same boat. I also require adaptive cruise control and I would like the 400V 150kw charger, and that narrows the playing field a lot. I'm also open to sedans and RWD cars, so that opens up my options a bit.

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