EVs v ICE long term durability

[Fish Fingers]

The Taycan is my first EV and I know very little about them from a long term durability perspective.

Especially compared to ICE cars that I have been used to.

I am guessing that enough people have now had EVs (Teslas?) longer term and may have some input on this.

I appreciate the batteries start to degrade on an EV, but you don't have things like clutch wear / timing belt changes etc.

Also interested in longer term servicing / running costs.

Just out of interest really - so any experiences / input welcome.

Thanks

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[mikeva]

I believe that because of all the required electronics that the EV's will be less durable over the long haul than ICE cars. Cars from 20 years ago (before all the onboard electronics) can easily be rebuilt. The current crop of ICE vehicles have so much electronics controlling the car that I am afraid that their durability is going to suffer -- but at least there is a mechanical engine at the heart of the car that can "easily" be rebuilt. When the electronics on a modern car go bad it usually means a replacement and over time those replacements are just not going to be available. To me, the EV just takes that 'replace vs. repair" to an even higher level and thus I believe the long term viability (and value) is going to suffer. For a high milage, worn out engine it can usually be rebuilt; for a high milage, worn out battery it is going to need to be replace -- at a much higher cost than the typical engine rebuild.

To me, this is similar to the camera bodies for avid photographers. My old film cameras still work fine but trying to find film and someone to process it is a bit of a problem. My digital bodies over the years seem to have a half-life of about 2 years before an "improved" model is available. While it is true that the electronics may make it a "better" camera body it also implies a constant need to upgrade just like a computer.

I like my Taycan but I have no illusion that with all the electronics and battery issues it is not much different that my computers and it is not something I expect to still be using too far into the future.

Now if you are talking about avoiding repair costs over the next 4 - 6 years (20 - 60,000 miles) then I expect the EV to be a better option.

 

[Jhenson29]

The drive (inverter) and motor can last a long long time. I’m not especially familiar with EVs specifically, but with drives and motors generally, I’m aware of some that have been running for 30 years with no issues with much more continuous use within those 30 years than cars ever see. Other than the motor bearings, there’s no moving parts. Other non-drive/motor mechanical parts generally fatigue/fail long before the drives/motors.

I’m less familiar with the battery side.

Anything else seems like it would be somewhat similar to newer ICE cars in terms of components and electronics.

They weigh more, typically. This doesn’t really adversely affect brakes due to regen, but maybe suspension and other components. Hopefully all built to handle it.

 

[W1NGE]

The Taycan is my first EV and I know very little about them from a long term durability perspective.

Especially compared to ICE cars that I have been used to.

I am guessing that enough people have now had EVs (Teslas?) longer term and may have some input on this.

I appreciate the batteries start to degrade on an EV, but you don't have things like clutch wear / timing belt changes etc.

Also interested in longer term servicing / running costs.

Just out of interest really - so any experiences / input welcome.

Thanks

I suspect most EVs will last longer than us mere mortals if cared for properly.

Battery is the big ticket item for sure with a gradual degradation over time - you have 8 years warranty on that one.

For the rest I think Porsche will continue to offer extended warranties as they do on ICEs and maintenance should be fairly low in general (not many moving parts) - one of the issues for dealers really as this is a cashflow shift from what they'd normally expect and now need to get creative.

 

[Fish Fingers]

It would be really interesting to know what some of the high mileage Tesla Model S cars (most comparable?) have achieved over the years and what the battery capacity is like on some of the mega mile cars?

 

[mikeva]

here is some info ... https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-electric-cars-surpass-300000-miles-in-shuttle-service/
and here. https://electrek.co/2020/05/11/tesla-model-x-extreme-mileage-repair-maintenance/

I still think there is going to be a big difference between a) lot of miles and b) lots of years....

 

[daveo4EV]

hmmmm - ummm yeah - I’m more optimistic than the general concerns here - the fact that a complex 800 moviing part “watch” can be rebuilt doesn’t make it more durable - longevity should be on par with any modern vehicle - if not greater - the EV motors will certainly outlast any mechanical engine (1 moving part and no wear vs. a turbo 6 or 8 cylender turbo 32 valve mechanical master piece with tolerances measures in 1000’s of an inch, 90% of the parts are wearable - ummm that’s more reliable?), battery is “modular solid state” in that it either works or it doesn’t - replacment cost is no different than any major drive train component - simpler transmission, battery is modular and electroic-solid-state, and broken electronics can be replaced - if you strip away the drive train (which is actually dramactically simpler mechanically than an ICE drive train) the rest of the Taycan is mostly the same as any other car and shares a lot of parts - suspension, brakes, wheels

in what way will this vehicle not last

AC Induction motors have been used in industrial capacities for decades and have MTBF’s measure in 10’s of millions of hours…

at a minimum we’re missing about 800 moving parts all of which can fail on say a panamera…

as far as longevity I’ll take the Taycan over a Panamera any day of the week if we’re going for longevity…

which is more likely to last longer? A 2021 Panamera or a 2021 Taycan - I think no question the Taycan - there is simply far less to go wrong - and being able to rebulid something is no different than being able to replace something…

if you want to get rid of electronics don’t we have to go back to the mid 70’s? After that it’s all about the same in terms of being dependent on motherboards to run the engines and systems…

strikes me a bit as “get off my lawn” FUD…and not based on any actual understanding or thinking about what is going on here.

You seriously think an ICE motor has greater reliability than a single moving part solid state EV motor with no wearable parts? Wow is all I have to say. And the battery - well that’s a consumable and cost less to replace than rebuilding your Turbo V8 800 part monstrosity which actually these days has even more computers than the Taycan…

also batteries fail in very very small fractions of numbers - but they do lose capacity (range) - but even 8-9 year old Tesla Model S still work with few if any failures - but may be down 30% of battery range…

but EV‘s and electronics in general have greatly enhanced durability and longevity…

not sure what people are concerned about. From my perspective there is sooo much less to go wrong durability and longevity should be greater than an ICE vehicle - the simple lack of wearable parts in the drive train and lack of thermal stress alone will make for greater longevity.

the _ONLY_ weak link in a properly designed EV is the battery - everything else is greater reliability (EV motors), lacking parts that exist on an ICE (fuel pump, transmissions, alternators, water pumps, sensors, emissions, thermostats, turbos, values, fuel injectors, high pressure fuel pumps,etc…), or identical to other vehicles (seriously 85% of this car is stolen from a panamera or some other VW/Audi vehicle) - and the battery is highly modular, servicable and takes less than 4 hours to replace, it‘s easier than a transmission swap)

so we’ve greatly reduced the complexity of the most wearable part of any automobile (the drive train and 100’s of moving parts watch) and we think reliability will go down?

 

[gnop1950]

Here is an interesting article on EV versus ICE maintenance: https://insideevs.com/news/317307/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

I'm not too concerned and I tend to keep my cars, if I like them, for a very long time. My current car is an 18-year-old Acura MDX. We traded in a 19-year-old Acura CL for my wife's RDX. The only exception is that my wife is interested in the new Macan EV's so we may trade her car for one of those when they come out.

 

[daveo4EV]

all the electronics and battery issues

what issues? my battery has no issues, neither do my electronics on my Taycan - what data is there showing a “lot of issues” - there have been warranty replacements and failures - but not out of line iwth the level of failure of similar components on an ICE vehicle.

I’m not trying to call any particluar individule out - but this statement lacks any evidence or data.

Seriously - what issues?

cause if you take that statement away - there is nothing to indicate a reliability issue. Electronics measured from a volume, scale, and actual MTBF bases (including personal computers) have failure rates measured in fractions of percentages over decades - they are not immune to damage or abuse, but they do not simply “fail” for no reason…

what battery or electronic issues has anyone experienced that is worse than any level of warranty claim percentgaes (my wife’s new 2015 boxster needed a new PDK transmission at less than 3,500 miles for example so nothing is immune to warranty issues).

other than FUD and some warranty level battery issues (fractions of the fleet) - what actual issues have you experienced?

 

[daveo4EV]

Taycan reliablity/longevity vs. a PDK transmssion and that doesn’t even begin to consider the Panamera’s V8 Turbo - cause that has nothing to wear out in 60,000 miles - I mean sheesh - ROFL…

 

[daveo4EV]

speaking of which I was just in for my 18,000 mile “inspection”

there was NOTHING to do - Porsche Dealer service was like - yeah we have nothing - they did try and charge me $522 to do the following:

• cabin air filter replacment
• align the matrix LED headlight

only reason I brought the car in and did anything was the hazard warning recall…

those are _2_ items on the 18,000 mile inspection list

I declined to pay $522 for a cabin airfilter and headlight alignment…

dealer checked next service according to Porsche factory

BrakeFluid every 2 years
BrakePads every 6 years (age of component not wear)
nothing else of _ANY_ merit is expected according to factory service expectations

the service guy was shocked - a mumbled something about being put out of business ”at this rate”…

 

[daveo4EV]

tires, fluids (brake fluid in particular), underbody panels (taycan is a low car, some of my underbody panels are showing some wear)…and any component that “fails”

but what else needs service?

 

[kort]

It would be really interesting to know what some of the high mileage Tesla Model S cars (most comparable?) have achieved over the years and what the battery capacity is like on some of the mega mile cars?

visit the tesla forums for that sort of info, I do know that there are many 100k+ mile teslas out there

 

[Skilly]

That these cars will wear out faster than ICE cars, I 100% agree with @daveo4EV - what exactly will wear out?! Even the batteries are designed to be modular where cells can be replaced rather than the whole thing.

I drove a model S P100D for 70,000 miles and replaced a cabin filter, and 2 sets of tires. Even Tesla when I traded it in couldn't find a anything wrong with it (PPF kept the front end like new). Even the coolant was only just coming up for replacement. And, the brake fluid was due because of time, but only by just over 6 months. Try to that in any ICE car - never, ever gonna happen. At minimum you would have brakes, 14 oil changes, belts, cabin, coolant, clutch tires etc.

In pointing to the electronics again Daveo is right - you're overlooking the electronic ignition that has been present in every car for roughly 40 years. Motors?....well, how many of us have a family member with some skill saw or table saw that has been around the family for what seems like forever? Same motor; same everything and still working strong.

The glitches in the PCM shouldn't be seen as evidence that these cars wont stand the test of time. The examples of 300,000 mile Tesla's will become more regular, and while ICE cars have been around for over 100 years, good luck on finding a reliable example of the same.

 

[daveo4EV]

worn out battery it is going to need to be replace -- at a much higher cost than the typical engine rebuild.

cost to replace a battery is actually less than virturally _ANY_ Porsche rebuild cost + parts for an ICE motor or transmission - my GT3 motor alone is a 50k vs replacement cost for a Taycan battery…and PDK transmissions are not cheap either to replace or rebuild…

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