"Why America's EV chargers keep breaking" - Article

[whitex]

I think this will come - or it will remain a "hack" I agree a standard like this normally includes physical specifications and protocols - but it's pretty obvious with 5 wires you can run CCS over a physical NACS cable/connection.

There is a slight but very important snag, where with NACS you have to multiplex 120/240AC with 450V/900V DC and need a solid protocol not to fuck that up (imagine Taycan's 800V+ battery accidentally connected directly to your home 120V backwards through the EVSE which is just a glorified extension cord, so will pass it backwards just fine). So it's not just the same 5 pins on a different connector, it really does need a well defined protocol.

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[feye]

@feye - You're not making a contribution to the discussion with this sort of post.

You've had some good things to add to discussions in the past so I expect more of you...

I recently had a chat with Chat GPT about T. I could not extract any critical meaningful information, it was all fanboy garbage forum social media. This member is filling up this and other forums with T fanboy garbage, and most forum members gubble it up like these new AIs do as the holy truth. Is it not enough?

You all know, that I, as an electrical engineer, absolutely share the enthusiasm about the EV evolution. A dream come true in the automotive space! But I value technically sound products as well as a quality product.

T on the other hand is selling lies (FSD, range, etc...) to get rich quick, it does not matter how many people get screwed over or worse die in the process. It is dishartening to say the least and flat out frustrating at times.

The only good news I can share about T is, that I got a hugely improved replacement for our MS90D, and hopefully can sell it soon to close this chapter in my life.

 

[snstevens]

I recently had a chat with Chat GPT about T. I could not extract any critical meaningful information, it was all fanboy garbage forum social media. This member is filling up this and other forums with T fanboy garbage, and most forum members gubble it up like these new AIs do as the holy truth. Is it not enough?

You all know, that I, as an electrical engineer, absolutely share the enthusiasm about the EV evolution. A dream come true in the automotive space! But I value technically sound products as well as a quality product.

T on the other hand is selling lies (FSD, range, etc...) to get rich quick, it does not matter how many people get screwed over or worse die in the process. It is dishartening to say the least and flat out frustrating at times.

The only good news I can share about T is, that I got a hugely improved replacement for our MS90D, and hopefully can sell it soon to close this chapter in my life.

Until we have standard data sets to train generative AI systems the answers you get should always be treated as interesting but not accurate. I understand Reddit is a source used to train ChatGPT, and so that might be the source of your "fan boy" overload. When I read some of that sh*t I just shake my head and move on.

FYI I'm also an electrical engineer and software developer who has fallen in love with the EV space - we have a lot in common.

The discussion we're having in this and a few other threads is much more about evolving standards, protocols, connectors, and most of all reliability of High Speed Charging networks. I think we all agree that Tesla has done good work in that space, regardless of what you think about their cars, software, etc.

My hope (as I expressed yesterday in an email to Kjell Gruner, President & CEO of Porsche NA) is that Porsche up its game and deliver a user experience in the charging space that matches that provided by Tesla. I think we all agree this would be ideal, and if it involves adopting the NACS standard, and/or partnering with Tesla, I'll be on board.

My personal goal is to continue driving these wonderful cars, and enjoy the adventure of traveling around the country (reliably) in them.

Welcome back to the discussion.

 

[whitex]

Until we have standard data sets to train generative AI systems the answers you get should always be treated as interesting but not accurate.

A great example of why you should do that.

 

[snstevens]

A great example of why you should do that.

Great video - long but great.

EDIT
I sent it to our company lawyer and he agreed that the line "Pro Tip - Don't lie to a judge" was a highlight

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Not sure if this made the rounds here: How reliable are public EV charging stations?

Key excerpts:
- " J.D. Power found charging issues have been pronounced in western states like California, which spearheaded EV adoption in the U.S. but now grapple with an aging infrastructure. Gruber said the percentage of respondents unable to use a public charger in the Pacific region was "considerably higher" than the rest of the country at just over 25% compared to less than 21% nationally. Another 2022 report found about a quarter of public fast chargers were broken in the San Francisco Bay Area. "

- " Electrify America plans to replace 600 aging fast chargers with newer models by the end of the year. "

- "[...] some public charging companies do not own and operate their chargers, but instead sell them to site hosts that own the property where the station is built. Charging station providers tend to cover maintenance or replacement costs for a set period of time under warranty, but once that window closes, Gruber said some property owners have little incentive to pay for upkeep. [...] Blink has adjusted its contracts with site hosts to address this issue, according to Jones. Now, if Blink sells a piece of equipment and network services to a site host who fails to maintain the product, the company will shut down the charger so it doesn’t appear on online public charger maps."

(apologies if this is a repost)

 

[whitex]

Just an observation to add to the topic of this thread - EA has been more reliable for me than the Taycan PCM. PCM almost got me stranded in the dark in a middle of a state park this weekend, because it would not boot and the 2 finger reboot twice did not fix it, neither did 20 minute parking while off. We had to navigate with phone out the window because Porsche removed the in-cabin LTE amplifier fairly early on, and with isolated glass the phone would get no signal. On the same weekend EA worked just fine, achieving charge rates as high as 250KW.

So yea, EA has reliability problems, but apparently, at least anecdotally for me, PCM software reliability is worse. To Porsche credit, at least when PCM was refusing to fully boot, HVAC was still working, as was the reverse camera, so better than when Tesla equivalent of PCM fails (though with Tesla, resetting always fixed it, unlike PCM).

 

[tigerbalm]

We had to navigate with phone out the window because Porsche removed the in-cabin LTE amplifier fairly early on, and with isolated glass the phone would get no signal.

Just want to add agreement with this – as I've seen comments that cast doubt if the laminated glass impacts mobile phone signals.

On my 4S I optioned the laminated/noise reducing glass – and mobile reception in the car (especially for passengers) was terrible – even in strong urban signal areas.

Though I liked the glass (and also the security improvements it delivers – its almost impossible to break through) – I didn't option on my current Taycan. Absolutely zero mobile phone signal issues now.

And my original Taycan had the LTE/4G amplifier – when phone was in its cradle – but it was always a passive amplifier – and I did not see it perform too well.

 

[snstevens]

Just an observation to add to the topic of this thread - EA has been more reliable for me than the Taycan PCM. PCM almost got me stranded in the dark in a middle of a state park this weekend, because it would not boot and the 2 finger reboot twice did not fix it, neither did 20 minute parking while off. We had to navigate with phone out the window because Porsche removed the in-cabin LTE amplifier fairly early on, and with isolated glass the phone would get no signal. On the same weekend EA worked just fine, achieving charge rates as high as 250KW.

So yea, EA has reliability problems, but apparently, at least anecdotally for me, PCM software reliability is worse. To Porsche credit, at least when PCM was refusing to fully boot, HVAC was still working, as was the reverse camera, so better than when Tesla equivalent of PCM fails (though with Tesla, resetting always fixed it, unlike PCM).

So sorry to hear you had a problem. Did you find out what the PCM issue was?

 

[snstevens]

I have noise insulating glass but to my knowledge haven't experienced significant LTE signal degradation. It seems my signal strength is normal. Also, my wife is always using her cell when we travel and I'd know if she was unhappy about that.

This is also the first I'm heard of an "in cabin LTE amplifier" - tell me more.

 

[whitex]

So sorry to hear you had a problem. Did you find out what the PCM issue was?

Nope, just wouldn't finish booting. Parked it later for over an hour, came back to the car, it worked fine. It also rebooted itself one more time the next day in the middle of driving, but after that reboot it came back and resumed navigation just fine. This was the first time I chose to let Porsche nav do the charging planning (in the past I've used ABRP and used Porsche nav to navigate one leg at a time), not sure if it's a coincidence or does more complex navigation cause the PCM software to collapse? Originally when I tried to have it plan my cross country trip home from the dealer, it was unable to finish the routing (though didn't crash, just sat there "thinking" forever - hence my switch to ABRP usage).

 

[tigerbalm]

not sure if it's a coincidence or does more complex navigation cause the PCM software to collapse?

That hasn't been my experience.

 

[whitex]

That hasn't been my experience.

Yea, I was just thinking what was different now vs. previous trips, besides any OTA'ed software that is, and perhaps LTE coverage difference (I traveled to an area with poor coverage, also an area in which I've never taken the Taycan before so possibly different cellular operators). Of course this could be just inadequate QA on Porsche part, and PCM just intermittently refuses to boot. Or it could be my PCM hardware, having some QA issues of its own causing memory corruptions or brownouts. Oh, this was also my first road-trip with someone in the passenger seat, so the passenger screen was not blacked out - perhaps yet another scenario Porsche QA doesn't test thoroughly? Who knows, but given all that, they should really give the user an ability to reset the car without having to park it for an hour.

 

[tigerbalm]

I've got absolutely no insight into what causes this – but I'm happy to share my "hunch". We know that PCM 6.0 is based on a docker architecture – Porsche has been reasonably public and proud of this in their Porsche Engineering magazine. Each "app" or tile in the PCM is a docker container.

For Porsche, this solves two big problems: (a) each app can be packaged (and in theory updated) without having any impact on other apps and (b) there doesn't have to be a totally unified approach to each app.

They run in their own protected memory and process space and especially they can run their own dependent processes without impacting other apps. This is a totally different approach to how iOS or Android works on billions of mobile devices. It is in fact closer to how many cloud servers work than consumer devices.

The fact that they feel they can't update apps or have multiple apps running in the same process and address space (or on one single OS) like smartphones do – is a window both into the chaos of automotive software and old fashioned approaches to keeping apps updated.

On the surface a Docker based PCM sounds modern – but is in fact a result of not being able to emulate how Apple or Google have deployed complex software to most of the planet.

However – and this is pure speculation on my part – the approach could have worked – but got caught up in traditional penny pinching in the automotive industry.

Docker is relatively CPU friendly – it doesn't add too much pressure on a processor – but where it is resource intensive is in its use of memory.

Running each app as its own "OS" with its own processes is not memory efficient – which is fine in server (or large desktop) situations where memory is usually plentiful.

Every time you tap a "app" or tile in the PCM – its booting a complete Docker container. You can see this in the "loading" screen with the spinning circle. If you hit an app you rarely use such as "smart service" or "info" you'll almost certainly see the loading screen.

For example, if you tap on "Weather" and haven't used it in a while – you'll see the loading spinner – which again is the docker container loading. After it has loaded, you'll be presented with the Weather app – which is auto run through something called Docker Entrypoint on the containers Dockerfile configuration. Anyways, you'll then see "data loading" in the app as it then needs to get its data from the weather service API it uses to show content.

Most apps need data to be useful so you'll see this dual loading which is a characteristic of this One App One Docker container approach they have taken.

One thing Docker will do – automatically – is that it will start to shutdown Docker containers if its running low on memory. I do not know what strategy Porsche uses here – but one reasonable guess is it will shut down the oldest, least used containers that are not currently showing on the screen.

The navigation is just a "app" and will also be shutdown in a memory constrained environment. If you've ever been using an app – such as Navigation – and suddenly it goes blank and you see the "Loading" spinner again – maybe even while driving – that is happening due to a low memory situation across the PCM – otherwise known as the Docker host.

You'll almost immediately see the "loading" spinner again as the PCM realises it has had to shutdown a container that was being used. But still even that – will free up processes and memory – and the PCM wouldn't do it if it had no choice.

I do not know how much physical memory the PCM has – but in my opinion it is not enough.

The one thing I would do if I was at Porsche is get more physical memory into the PCM – and I bet you they'd consider the €50/unit increase in cost as way too much – in what was for me a €200k car.

I'd bet my bottom dollar what @whitex is experiencing is an extreme low memory situation – and because of the "auto restore" to where you were – even on reboot – when this happens rebooting isn't working as its re-loading back to the problem.

You'll notice for example, if you have an active navigation route and you do the "two finger" reset – go into engineering mode and then restart back out of it – the PCM will restart with the current navigation route still "live". This is window into how it wants to get back to where it was pre-reboot.

While sometimes the "two finger" reset is enough of a reboot to fix problems – the lock car and walk away - seems to cause the PCM to do a deeper reset which solves this problem.

The second thing I'd do at Porsche – is just acknowledge that the PCM sometimes gets itself into problems and allow users access the "full/deep reset" function within the "advanced settings" menu option. Stop pretending its not required.

My Macbook that has a battle-hardened macOS with a UNIX linage right back to the original AT&T Unix of the 1970s – has a full restart computer option.

What makes the PCM so special ? Nothing.

 

[tigerbalm]

There are a few exceptions to functions on the PCM that are not implemented as Docker containers. Two that jump out to me is: Homelink (if optioned) and the camera display. The are both needed too quickly for containers to work – so they appear to be running directly on the PCM host OS.

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