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GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

Jonathan S.

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Who me, an analytical kind of guy?
(My graduate school areas of concentration were Government & Business and Energy & Environmental Policy. I also cross-registered for two courses at MIT in energy analysis, from which I learned that electricity is generated from magic fairy dust and has zero environmental drawbacks ... or am not remembering those two courses correctly?)

Although I would love to have a decent budget for a real consulting engagement and research all this in depth, barring that, I suspect it's an intensification of the same problems as elsewhere:
  • Higher population density and miles travelled along the major highway corridors, so the more use, the more these break.
  • Probably higher EV adoption on a per-capita basis, so more of the above.
  • Temperature swings from 100F+ to negative F probably don't help with reliability, and we can go through that range in a single day.
  • Ditto re rain and snow.
But that raises the question, why doesn't all of that just prompt more investment?
The answer reminds me a little bit of this book I'm listening to just now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Nations_Fail (and in case you're wondering what an economist does for fun, the answer is more economics, just for fun!)
  • EA has lots of lousy little four-charger stations (including the OG EA, ~30min from my house, which I might visit sometime just to pay privilege to where this failure first started, installed in May 2018, undermining claims that EA just needs more time), but that quantity deters market entrants from supplying something better, especially given the free charging and otherwise low rates (kind of like when I was an alpine race coach, mainly for fun, with the perverse effect of hurting the labor market for career coaches, and same thing now as a volunteer ski patroller).
  • For VT specifically, the state appropriated money in 2019 and 2020 (only now being spent), so why bother building stations with your own money when a competitor is getting Mo Money.
  • Ditto re the 2021 NEVI $.
  • And starting with the announcements in spring 2023, why bother trying to compete with TSCN (which has exactly the kind of comprehensive network that would be expected, especially in VT & NH, unlike all the scattershot one- and two-charger CCS1 stations, which might be the subject of an upcoming thread entitled CCS1 Locations that Make No Sense).
Potential factors that I don't think are factors:
  • Higher electricity prices, I don't think that should affect DCFC (as opposed to EV adoption in general), since the cost from the driver perspective is all relative to home charging, and we pay $0.37/kWh at home (Eversource), so even the Magic Dock rate of about 50 cents is a bargain given the convenience factor. (My brother-in-law pays
  • Aversion to adding electric transmission lines/ NG lines, my general impression is that the grid here is in good shape, although I could ask an economist friend who used to work for ISO NE England, and it certainly hasn't impeded a robust TSCN here.
  • Land costs, we have plenty of big box retailer strip malls with monster parking lots, which often host both a typical 4-charger EA and a 16-charger TSCN.
  • Homes still heated with oil, yes, that does seem archaic, but I suspect part of that is that tank removal can incur big environmental cleanup costs if anything goes wrong, so best to just keep using it. (When I sold my childhood home in 2021, although my parents had decades ago switched away from oil heating, that 1951 oil tank was still in the basement!)
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WasserGKuehlt

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How is that going to prevent my Taycan charging using a borrowed adapter and a Ford account? I don't think charging integrated with the app means no plug-and-charge.
The Ford account is possession/MFA, so ultimately it's outside of Tesla's sphere of 'responsibility' (in the security sense). That is, if Tesla detects abuse, it can: a) ask Ford to fix their s#!t, and/or b) disallow the respective account.

The adapter aspect is more of a "hardware quality" aspect, ie for plausible deniability (use Hubbell, not Leviton). For cross-(charging-)network access, all you'd need is a form of federated authentication - I don't care/need to know who you are, just that you have a valid contract with someone I trust.

I was looking at a diagram (helpfully provided by a forum member), and the restriction for a single charging network is not/cannot be baked into the car. That is, no reason why you couldn't have PnC with any network; @mrogerc's data point earlier in this thread is proof it can be done/resolved solely on the provider's side.
 

Tooney

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@Jonathan S. Thanks for your thoughts. I just looked at Tesla supercharger map. Lots of those in CT compared to EA and other CCS1 networks. Clearly it isn't external factors like power costs, etc.
 

Jonathan S.

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If you look really carefully:

... you can just barely make out an EA station in the background, with four chargers, one of which is broken, with a Taycan charging in the high double-digits at one of the "working" chargers, and five drivers waiting in line (conceptually, since these stations have no readily available means of forming a line).
And if you think about that post carefully, you will realize that Tesla never does photo shoots or any other type of formal PR. (But still kind of fun to speculate!)
 


Jonathan S.

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Ford gains TSCN access…today!

https://www.ford.com/support/how-to...-charging-adapter-frequently-asked-questions/

Except the Ford OEM adapters haven’t started shipping yet.
Perhaps purchasers of the Lectron and A2Z adapters will laugh at everyone who previously laughed at them for buying adapters when access was not anticipated until the spring.
TBD if anyone can gain access simply by claiming in the Tesla app that you drive a Ford.
 
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Jonathan S.

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I took delivery just now of my Mustang Mach E GT!
Okay, so only in the app do I have one.
Ditto for the adapter.

The other confusing part is that not all V3 stations show up in the app. At least two V3 stations are missing along I91. But those stations also have older V2 chargers, so perhaps this is a temporary problem with the app update this morning? The website has the same omission when searching with the new NACS option.
Porsche Taycan GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design) IMG_5170
Porsche Taycan GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design) IMG_5169
 

kotyara

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I took delivery just now of my Mustang Mach E GT!
Okay, so only in the app do I have one.
Ditto for the adapter.

The other confusing part is that not all V3 stations show up in the app. At least two V3 stations are missing along I91. But those stations also have older V2 chargers, so perhaps this is a temporary problem with the app update this morning? The website has the same omission when searching with the new NACS option.
IMG_5170.png
IMG_5169.png
How did you get access to that extra tesla menu?
 


kotyara

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The app was updated this morning. You might have to manually update it first.
The cars list is weird. They have NIO which is not sold in the U.S. but don’t have Porsche which committed to NACS ?
 

whitex

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According to this:
https://insideevs.com/news/710517/tesla-supercharger-adapters-online-february/

Tesla supercharger access is plug-and-charge only. This could be bad news for pre refresh Taycans, as their charger firmwares do not appear to be updatable (hence it costs thousands for 2020 Taycan owners to enable plug-and-charge). Maybe they could make it work with existing plug-and-charge, but that would probably require Tesla to do a Porsche specific update, which they might pass on. Between this and the fact that standard Taycan can only charge at 50KW at Tesla, and given a limited fleet of those in the US, I am not holding my breath for old Taycans to get access any time soon, or ever.
 

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I purchased the Lectron adapter in January but am still waiting for it to arrive. Once I get it I'm going to try using the Tesla app to initiate charging.

If someone else has the adapter please give it a try and let me know what you learn. I'm not sure if you have to pretend to be a VW ID.4 or not, but I'd like to know how it goes. From what I've read in the Tesla App, only Ford vehicles are supported at this time.
 
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Jonathan S.

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According to this:
https://insideevs.com/news/710517/tesla-supercharger-adapters-online-february/

Tesla supercharger access is plug-and-charge only. This could be bad news for pre refresh Taycans, as their charger firmwares do not appear to be updatable (hence it costs thousands for 2020 Taycan owners to enable plug-and-charge). Maybe they could make it work with existing plug-and-charge, but that would probably require Tesla to do a Porsche specific update, which they might pass on. Between this and the fact that standard Taycan can only charge at 50KW at Tesla, and given a limited fleet of those in the US, I am not holding my breath for old Taycans to get access any time soon, or ever.
We look fine for that:

https://www.ford.com/support/how-to...-charging-adapter-frequently-asked-questions/


Can you use a Supercharger without the software update?
The main component of the sotware update is to enable Plug & Charge. You can manually initiate a charge if needed.
 
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daveo4EV

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multiple reports now confirm that Tesla can and is successfully blocking/filtering based on vehicle identity information - so as a business policy they are not allowing you to charge at Superchargers until your specific vehicle is supported by your manufacturer and them - there is _NO_ technical reason this can not work - but there are business policy reasons that your Taycan will be prevented from charging - you will not gain authorization to start the charging session until both Tesla and Porsche commence their agreement with each other

as to what if any "updates" at required (software hardware) for existing Taycans to be able to change via a Porsche or generic adatper - all of that is TBD and we will not find out until 2025 according to Porsche's original PR release…

I have no reason to believe that your Taycan will be prevented from using "magicDock" equipped sites in North American - since the stated purpose of MagicDock sites is to allow any EV to charge there - so you have some access to a limited number of supercharger sites _TODAY_ where the business policy is not "filtering" for specific vehicle types - I know for a fact this works for my 2020 Taycan @ Scotts valley, CA MagicDock site…and have no reason to suspect any different at any other MagicDock sites - YMMV…

looks like we have to wait until 2025 with Porsche/Tesla's blessing before we can use non-MagicDock V3/V4 sites…

this can change at _ANY_ moment if Tesla chooses to change their business policy and relax their authorization requirements - I don't foresee that happening, but let's be clear - there is no _TECHNICAL_ reason this can't work, but the business partners are currently choosing to control network access…which is of course their prerogative…

because I "own" my mistakes - I'll have kept my "inaccurate" speculation listed below in an inline spoiler - but it turns out this speculation is in fact inaccurate due to Tesla's choice of business policy and their authorization enforcement.

see my original post below…

as I speculated months ago - so far I see nothing that would prevent you from:
  • bringing your own adapter
  • lying about what kind of car you have
  • starting a charging session with the Tesla app
when I get my adapter from Lectron I'll test…

any "support" or "updates" from the various non-Tesla vehicle manufacturers would be to support plug&charge, in car navigation (pre-conditioning), and/or better charging status in the vehicle's infotainment and updates to vendor apps for charging support and status - there is very little to actually prevent someone from charging if they have an adapter & an app (Tesla in this case) to activate a charging session…

actually charging your vehicle may be as simple as: adapter + activate via Tesla app…with "better integration" being the stuff that's on the road map for future support…

I'm willing to bet I can charge my 2020 Taycan at my local V3/V4 superchargers once I get my adapter from Lectron…

I'll report status once I have something to share.
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