What to expect from OTA?

[daveo4EV]

it's also worth noting that even "notifying" customers that there is software update possible is new territory for Porsche - which used to treat software as something you do "in addition" to physical maintenance (ie. you're in for an oil change and we'll also update the firmware on your lights)

Porsche _IS_ making progress in this space -they updated 2020 Taycan (at great expense) to match the software features for 2021's and later - this type of "included" and "costly" dealer based update process would've been unheard of from Porsche in the past - so they are changing…(color icons, wireless carplay, android auto, and some actual efficiency improvements were an amazing amoutn of "retrofit" at no cost to the vehicle owner (other than time vehicle was at dealership))

it's not entirely a joke that Porsche's approach to OTA software updates is the electronic notification (OTA) that there _IS_ an update availabe via dealer service visit…this is new and welcome - but it's unfortunately not industry leading given software progress by other vendors…

the basic message however stands: if you're looking for meaningful updates in your vehicle's software (OTA or dealer based) Porsche is not your vendor - the most reasonable expectations for any Porsche customer for any Porsche vehicle is that the software on your vehicle 2+ years after you purchase will be pretty much the same version/capabilities as day 1 of your ownership experience…Porsche's strengths are mechanical engineering, not software infrastructure, and they focus on their strengths…

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[Murph7355]

...
the basic message however stands: if you're looking for meaningful updates in your vehicle's software (OTA or dealer based) Porsche is not your vendor - the most reasonable expectations for any Porsche customer for any Porsche vehicle is that the software on your vehicle 2+ years after you purchase will be pretty much the same version/capabilities as day 1 of your ownership experience…Porsche's strengths are mechanical engineering, not software infrastructure, and they focus on their strengths…

The point is not what we died in the wool sports car fans expect if Porsche is to survive... It's what those buyers coming through are prepared to accept.

Porsche will shrug at the thought of Lucid, Rivian or Tesla usurping them, but complacency will lead to big trouble.

They need to change their architecture if it is indeed as you note. Otherwise they will get left behind.

Look at the UK car and motorbike industry as a great example. Different "systems" and "architectures", but a parallel nonetheless.

 

[whitex]

I use an 8 year old phone which doesn't get AV updates from Samsung any more - I know bad - but there we are!

When there is a human involved and a potential for harm then now way OTA - not many if any are put at risk with regular patching of phones, laptops, tablets etc for general consumption.

A lot of people use "password", "123456", or "qwerty" as their online password everywhere. Not for me, but we all choose the level or risk we are comfortable with to balance against convenience and preferences - "123456" is definitely a convenient password to use and easy to remember.

Appreciate that the earth is not flat but I don't buy cars on the basis of the tech they use and a Tesla is not a Porsche (and all that that entails).

Taycans are not Teslas but they are internet connected devices, therefore they are always exposed to the entire world. I do realize that it's something people cannot easily see (like the fact that Earth is spherical). I remember a while back a car manufacturer wanted to offer an optional high end internet firewall for their high end vehicles ($100K+). Their market research came back with "almost nobody will pay for it, because there is no tangible/visible benefit to the user". Airbags were similar, though at least with those you could show people slow motion crashes to drive home the point of buying them (some people are still against them in cars, since like everything else in life, there have some drawbacks). Luckily the governments are stepping in with some minimum cybersecurity requirements, similarly as they did with seat belts, air bags, etc. Such regulations are the reason Porsche is not allowed to sell the old Macan and 918 in EU anymore.

People often underestimate cybersecurity risks. I remember having a conversation with my mother in law, how she didn't think her gmail password was worth guarding, arguing that "who wants to see my emails with my friends". Only after I pointed out the fact that if someone takes over her email, they can reset banking, paypal, ebay, brokerage, other passwords, did she change her mind. My friend's wife learned it the hard way, someone hijacked her email (due to a reused password most likely), took over her ebay account, sold a bunch of fake goods, disappeared with the money, but not before taking over a few other accounts. In the end she ended up having to explain the fake goods to law enforcement, and having to go through a bunch of effort recovering accounts. She never got her email back though, the best the email hosting company was willing to do was to permanently freeze the account - that was because they have no way of knowing who the rightful owner is (anyone can sign up for gmail).

Had Porsche gone down the 100% in-house path from the drawing board then their implementation would have been much simpler / smoother / controllable but as they didn't they've ended up with a bugger's muddle and hence OTA is never going to be a Porsche success story unless they rip it up and start again (I expect it's only a matter of time).

You are not wrong. IMO their mistake was to not start with OTA as a hard requirement across the whole car. I did some learning of Porsche electronics while waiting 20 months for my Taycan (got used parts off ebay to play with, even built myself a small cockpit). Gotta tell you, I think they were planning on a fairly extensive OTA as there is a fairly powerful, dedicated ECU in the Taycan to handle OTA's - it has an dual core ARM Cortex-A9 application processor with external DRAM and FLASH memory (think smartphone electronics, but automotive grade), as well as a separate automotive microcontroller onboard with a whole bunch of physical connections to different onboard modules. I don't know exactly what happened there, but I don't think they are using it much, almost at all. Maybe they missed the schedule and cannot make it up anymore, maybe it was too hard - beyond the scope of their expertise, maybe they screwed up the hardware design somewhere and in legacy automotive fashion are waiting until next generation platform to fix it? Who knows. Sad that they didn't make it work.

PS> Here is what the OTA module looks like inside, for those who like these kind of details (excuse the thermal paste mess, I only took a whole board picture before I cleaned it off).

 

[Jhenson29]

Remember the post in here not too long ago from the Taycan owner in Canada who was told that the car couldn't get updated until his dealer received the thumb drive with the update code from Porsche in the mail?
I am not joking.

But…if the thumb drive shipped via airplane, I think it could still be considered OTA.

 

[daveo4EV]

A lot of people use "password", "123456", or "qwerty" as their online password everywhere. Not for me, but we all choose the level or risk we are comfortable with to balance against convenience and preferences - "123456" is definitely a convenient password to use and easy to remember.


Taycans are not Teslas but they are internet connected devices, therefore they are always exposed to the entire world. I do realize that it's something people cannot easily see (like the fact that Earth is spherical). I remember a while back a car manufacturer wanted to offer an optional high end internet firewall for their high end vehicles ($100K+). Their market research came back with "almost nobody will pay for it, because there is no tangible/visible benefit to the user". Airbags were similar, though at least with those you could show people slow motion crashes to drive home the point of buying them (some people are still against them in cars, since like everything else in life, there have some drawbacks). Luckily the governments are stepping in with some minimum cybersecurity requirements, similarly as they did with seat belts, air bags, etc. Such regulations are the reason Porsche is not allowed to sell the old Macan and 918 in EU anymore.

People often underestimate cybersecurity risks. I remember having a conversation with my mother in law, how she didn't think her gmail password was worth guarding, arguing that "who wants to see my emails with my friends". Only after I pointed out the fact that if someone takes over her email, they can reset banking, paypal, ebay, brokerage, other passwords, did she change her mind. My friend's wife learned it the hard way, someone hijacked her email (due to a reused password most likely), took over her ebay account, sold a bunch of fake goods, disappeared with the money, but not before taking over a few other accounts. In the end she ended up having to explain the fake goods to law enforcement, and having to go through a bunch of effort recovering accounts. She never got her email back though, the best the email hosting company was willing to do was to permanently freeze the account - that was because they have no way of knowing who the rightful owner is (anyone can sign up for gmail).



You are not wrong. IMO their mistake was to not start with OTA as a hard requirement across the whole car. I did some learning of Porsche electronics while waiting 20 months for my Taycan (got used parts off ebay to play with, even built myself a small cockpit). Gotta tell you, I think they were planning on a fairly extensive OTA as there is a fairly powerful, dedicated ECU in the Taycan to handle OTA's - it has an dual core ARM Cortex-A9 application processor with external DRAM and FLASH memory (think smartphone electronics, but automotive grade), as well as a separate automotive microcontroller onboard with a whole bunch of physical connections to different onboard modules. I don't know exactly what happened there, but I don't think they are using it much, almost at all. Maybe they missed the schedule and cannot make it up anymore, maybe it was too hard - beyond the scope of their expertise, maybe they screwed up the hardware design somewhere and in legacy automotive fashion are waiting until next generation platform to fix it? Who knows. Sad that they didn't make it work.

PS> Here is what the OTA module looks like inside, for those who like these kind of details (excuse the thermal paste mess, I only took a whole board picture before I cleaned it off).

i think they can’t run the OTA hardware off 12v power safely for a longer duration update and dying in the middle is bad juju - left hand didn’t talk to right hand - they sourced a pretty low capacity 12v system - the early problem with 12v drain demonstrate the car can kill the 12v in about 45minutes - not enough time to run systems to update and such - so they abandoned OTA updates to keep supply chain plans intact

 

[whitex]

i think they can’t run the OTA hardware off 12v power safely for a longer duration update and dying in the middle is bad juju - left hand didn’t talk to right hand - they sourced a pretty low capacity 12v system - the early problem with 12v drain demonstrate the car can kill the 12v in about 45minutes - not enough time to run systems to update and such - so they abandoned OTA updates to keep supply chain plans intact

That would be a problem on their ICE cars (some of which have the same/similar OTA module IIRC), however on the Taycan that would not be an issue as they can just engage the DC2DC converter (i.e. energize the HV battery). We know they have this capability as that is what happens when you precondition (triggered via app of a timer, with the latter probably being the way to schedule OTA updates). They do the same when flashing car with new firmwares at the dealer - as soon as PIWIS connects to the car, the car permanently energizes the HV system to keep the 12 from dying (there even a warning about HV being energized showing on the IC).

I do think you are right on the left hand not talking to the right hand or the head, just not in terms of keeping 12V alive during an update.

EDIT: Perhaps updating the DC2DC controller might cut off the 12V, but OTA should be able to time it so that the 12V is at some minimum SoC and the update of just the DC2DC (or some other component which controls it) takes a very short time.

 

[Mr. 2021 Taycan]

I'm waiting patiently for the OTA that decreases my vehicles loss of market value.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

The point is not what we died in the wool sports car fans expect if Porsche is to survive... It's what those buyers coming through are prepared to accept.

Porsche will shrug at the thought of Lucid, Rivian or Tesla usurping them, but complacency will lead to big trouble.

They need to change their architecture if it is indeed as you note. Otherwise they will get left behind.

As long as a kid of the day/age stops, mouth agape, watching a contemporary 911 drive by, Porsche will continue to sell their cars 20-30-40 years later.

Sure, not all kids will do that, and that’s okay. It’s really not about the UX, the software, the features..

 

[Murph7355]

As long as a kid of the day/age stops, mouth agape, watching a contemporary 911 drive by, Porsche will continue to sell their cars 20-30-40 years later.

Sure, not all kids will do that, and that’s okay. It’s really not about the UX, the software, the features..

I understand this side of things having seen a Ferrari 308 at a relatively young age and being mesmerised.

Am not sure it's really the same for Porsche though. 911s are a volume product... And in a few years will be electric....

 

[tmrqs]

apparently one of the reasons OTA updates are so far and few between is that you need a stable external power supply while the update is being applied - so to apply and update you need a few things:

• PWIS dealer service computer
• your PWIS needs to have "live/authorized" access to germany during the update (how you achieve this is up to you)
• you need to have the car on a very stable external 12-18V power supply
• you need to follow a mutli-step process to update modules in the order dictated by the software update procedures
• you need to be able to "recover" modules from a bad update
  • it is a fact that during updates to some 2020 model Taycan's that certain vehicle modules were "bricked" requiring installing new physical parts to recover from the failure(s)

the Taycan is not architected to to be able to be safely updated "in the field" by end users - I would suggest it could be many years before we see a Porsche vehicle that does not require a dealer service visit to received "significant" updates…

there are OTA updates for the Taycan but they seem to be limited to PCM functions and the occasional "data set" update…release notes are also not a "strength" of Porsche - so after each update I really have no idea what software I've received.

if you desire the warm fuzzies of a dealer free significant OTA software update infrastructure: Tesla, Rivian, Lucid are probably the vendors you need to be considering. Porsche is not your answer.

That is also how it works (worked) on the Ford Mach-e: OTA updates were very infrequent and the fastest way to get the latest software was plugging the car to a power supply and laptop running FDRS.

Over time, OTA updates became much more frequent to the point I ditched my laptop and now get them every few weeks without doing anything. Took Ford 3 years and a bit to (mostly) fix the situation.

Is it possible to achieve the above with Porsche or is it strictly dealerships that can do it? FDRS licenses are officially available for purchase to anyone willing to splurge.

And if/when done at the dealership, is there a cost?

 

[trycan]

Is it possible to achieve the above with Porsche or is it strictly dealerships that can do it? FDRS licenses are officially available for purchase to anyone willing to splurge.

I believe the right-to-repair laws protect independent shops by saying manufacturers have to make diagnostic software available to non-dealerships. However, the law doesn't say anything about making it affordable to a home user, and I would guess the PIWIS subscription has an eye-watering price tag.
The $50 FDRS 2-day license is a nice offering by Ford, the cable is a little pricey but well worth it for what it lets you do on your own.

 

[anonymouse]

Since purchase of Taycan last year, OTA approximate update count:
- oven: 3
- phone: 5
- tablet: 5
- headphones: 1
- mower: 1
- Tesla: 6
- Porsche: 0

Visits to dealer for “software upgrades:
- Porsche: 2 (2 days each time)
- everything else in the household: 0

 

[tmrqs]

I believe the right-to-repair laws protect independent shops by saying manufacturers have to make diagnostic software available to non-dealerships. However, the law doesn't say anything about making it affordable to a home user, and I would guess the PIWIS subscription has an eye-watering price tag.
The $50 FDRS 2-day license is a nice offering by Ford, the cable is a little pricey but well worth it for what it lets you do on your own.

FDRS for software updates at $50 is a steal, and FORScan for most setting adjustments is free.
Is there a FORScan equivalent for Porsche to your knowledge?

 

[trycan]

FDRS for software updates at $50 is a steal, and FORScan for most setting adjustments is free.
Is there a FORScan equivalent for Porsche to your knowledge?

I only know what I was able to find reading threads on this forum, so haven't tried anything myself. (no Taycan yet).
I believe there is something called developer mode, with settings that can be adjusted if you have PIWIS software and a cable.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...-functions-on-their-taycans.17722/post-272781

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Since purchase of Taycan last year, OTA approximate update count:
- oven: 3
- phone: 5
- tablet: 5
- headphones: 1
- mower: 1
- Tesla: 6
- Porsche: 0

Visits to dealer for “software upgrades:
- Porsche: 2 (2 days each time)
- everything else in the household: 0

Waiwaiwait: your oven received more OTA updates than your mower and headphones combined? That is one frighteningly smart oven, I bet it prepares the ingredients and not just cook them? It may possibly show more than the time, too.

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