Hybrid Alternative to all electric

[Murph7355]

... I will reconsider my opinion on the hybrid Panamera... ?

The other key thing here is that we're all different and like different things... So worth having a test when the opportunity arises.

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[andb]

The powertrain seemed confused to me... Neither one thing nor the other.

And the general feel of the car felt very different to the Taycan... More Jag saloon in nature than Audi RS4/6.

Which one you drove, the new Panamera or old? I have the 971.1 and indeed is not a very refined and efficient hybrid system, however the new Panamera has double the range and more power so that should deliver a true EV.

 

[f1eng]

Do you plug it in a lot?

I charge it every time I go on a journey which would need the IC engine to run.

It takes about 6kWh from the point at which the engine starts to being 100% and does 30 to 35 miles as an EV then. so around 5 to 6 miles/kWh about double the efficiency of the Taycan probably because it is 700kg lighter and has much narrower tyres.

It takes about 3 hours to charge with the supplied 13A cable or about 2 with the Andersen I installed for the Porsche, peaking at about 3.5kW.

 

[Gino]

"According to the Chinese global market leader CATL, the
the price of batteries on the global markets has fallen by 30 percent since last summer and by as much as 50 percent by the beginning of this summer.
The fall in raw material prices alone has led to a 30 percent reduction in
prices alone have led to a cost reduction of 30 percent in the storage sector, according to a report by market analysts from S&P Global Commodity Insights in London. And there is still no end in sight to the price slump."

Perhaps just keep your Taycan for a while and wait, until we see much larger batteries?

That's what I'm hoping will happen. Porsche and all the other EV manufacturers are in the same boat. If battery replacement costs don't come down by at least 50% from where they are now then every EV would be considered disposable.
A 30% cost reduction for batteries is a good start so hopefully by 2030 these cost reductions will get to 50% or more as battery technologies & manufacturing methods mature.
In the meantime my wife & I will thoroughly be enjoying our Taycan until 2030 when our safety net goes away.
Luckily we can afford to take a chance on Porsche to solve this problem.
In a way premium car manufacturers like Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, etc., that sell vehicle at 2-3X or more than GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda and others have a cost of goods advantage.
They make much more margin on the same KwH battery capacity as a Hyundai so they only have to reduce their battery replacement cost as a percentage of the vehicle's original sales price which will be 2-3X higher than the price point for replacement Honda, Toyota, Ford or GM will need drop to.
If Porsche tries to cling to a $60K+ replacement cost after warranty expires then they will destroy their reputation as the luxury brand with engineering to last the vehicle owner's lifetime. The idea of second hand, third hand ownership of well maintained sculpted works of art in motion would be incredibly bad & short sighted for Porsche to lose.
In the Semiconductor industry I worked for ASML who makes the most expensive production cameras used in fabs around the world. These systems cost from several million USD to $500M USD with a very expensive lens at its core which costs roughly 60% of the new system cost. ASML does not guarantee these lenses for more than 2 years but does offer lens insurance to customers to insure they can get a failed lense replaced at a known cost up front they can factor in to their purchase.
I believe this is what will eventually happen if the cost to repair/replace battery packs does not drop far enough to become realistic to justify just like rebuilding/replacing an engine.

 

[d00d]

Weren't PHEVs created to meet fleet mileage government standards?
From a consumer standpoint I've never understood the benefit.
ICE for range, although the gap is narrowing, EV for no maintenance.
Questionable if you're saving the planet, unless using solar, as the nuclear part is just burying the problem for another day.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I believe this is what will eventually happen if the cost to repair/replace battery packs does not drop far enough to become realistic to justify just like rebuilding/replacing an engine.

Since you mentioned the cost of rebuilding an engine twice now, I feel compelled to respond. I've had to rebuild the engine of my 996; I didn't go nuts with upgrades or mods (bored to 3.8l & resleeved by LN Engineering, Pauter rods, Woessner pistons, all other parts genuine Porsche, no head porting/polishing). All in all, this was ~27k. The list of parts was ~2 pages, multiple specialists were involved at different steps - rebuilding an engine is neither an easy endeavor, nor a cheap one. One could argue it did not make financial sense for my car (I'm not very smart about this kind of decision).

The current price of replacement batteries simply denotes the scarcity - of demand, and of the offering. I've no doubt things will improve - dramatically - as the EV market grows (in age and size), allowing for a healthy recycling industry to establish itself.

Compared to rebuilding an engine, reconditioning or re-manufacturing an EV battery is positively trivial.

 

[Gino]

Since you mentioned the cost of rebuilding an engine twice now, I feel compelled to respond. I've had to rebuild the engine of my 996; I didn't go nuts with upgrades or mods (bored to 3.8l & resleeved by LN Engineering, Pauter rods, Woessner pistons, all other parts genuine Porsche, no head porting/polishing). All in all, this was ~27k. The list of parts was ~2 pages, multiple specialists were involved at different steps - rebuilding an engine is neither an easy endeavor, nor a cheap one. One could argue it did not make financial sense for my car (I'm not very smart about this kind of decision).

The current price of replacement batteries simply denotes the scarcity - of demand, and of the offering. I've no doubt things will improve - dramatically - as the EV market grows (in age and size), allowing for a healthy recycling industry to establish itself.

Compared to rebuilding an engine, reconditioning or re-manufacturing an EV battery is positively trivial.

I was quoted $23K by Porsche in 2018 to either rebuild my base model motor or trade mine in for a Porsche certified motor replacement. I'm sure that price has gone up since 2018 like everything else.
I am like you, I would always rebuild or replace any ICE motor I have in my collection because I meticulously maintain all my vehicles so they never ever even have a scratch, ding or dent even after 20 years like my Boxster. After I got t-boned which totaled my 2000 Boxster I was able to sell my motor(42K miles), the rear end body panels, tiptronic transmission and my 20" wheels for $27K in 2020 which was not bad after 20 years to get a little less than 30% for just the engine & wheels.
We really don't know how long the LG HV batteries will last beyond 8 years or 100K miles but I'm hoping they are proven to be safe with no fire risk for at least 15-20 years. If not I would contend EVs with HV battery replacement cost exceeding 30% of the base model new selling price would get branded as disposable. Ideally if the dealers sell complete battery replacements at 30% of the original base cost hopefully there will be 3rd shops licensed to safely work on HV batteries to repair & replace them at a reduced cost compared to dealers just like engines & transmission.
I recently had my 2007 Airstream Interstate Sprinter conversion transmission & torque converter rebuilt with a 3 year 36K mile warranty for $6500. The dealer quoted me $21,000 plus labor with the caveat that additional parts & labor may be required.
I do have confidence Porsche as well as all the other EV manufacturers will find a way to make money on battery repairs & replacements without sending the signal to customers that you really shouldn't keep an EV too long. My salesman at Porsche as well as sales management made it very clear that in an effort to be open and honest about any EV, they advised me I should not keep any EV past the mandated 8 year 100K mile warranty.
It should be interesting when the first Taycans outside of warranty begin to pile up where we will see what these costs really are. I'm already resigned to replace my battery in 10-15 years hopefully at a price I can swallow...

 

[McgR]

I had a Panamera 4e hybrid for two weeks while my Taycan was fixed. I did have rear axle steering like my Taycan. I like the way the Panamera drives

But I find my Taycan it bit to hard. The Panamera is a bit softer. The seat are a bit larger and better for me.

From 2022 on, the PCM is the same colored one as in the Taycan which is nice but can’t be compared to Idrive I the latest i5 or MBUX on the latest EQS.

The sound if the V6 is very nice. It didn’t even have the sport

I have driven an X5 40e and 45e before, both for two year. With a PHEV the drive around town is more relaxed because I am always trying to keep the ICE off. You automatically drive less aggressive because you don’t want the ICE to switch on for a short time. With a cold enigine it will stay on some time until the engine is hot before switching off again.

I am considering going PHEV for the next three years. Panamera 4 e ST or BMW 550e Touring.

did a test drive in the i5 60 with adaptive M suspension. Really comfortable in one and sporty in the other setting. Range and charging speed worse than the Taycan so not an option. The 550e has a 200 hp electric engine with a good sized battery and the i6 B56 ICE. Around 100 km should be possible. The PHEV combination looks promising It has a higher seating position than the Taycan. Better view around.

However I prefer the looks of the Panamera / Taycan. It’s something special. The pana has an opening roof. Having one for 2 weeks made me realize I miss it.

Some really nice deals on Panamera from Porsche Germany. Fully optioned, 6 months old.

Will the Panamera PHEV be more reliable? Some bad posts about that too. Or are those just the older models and are they solved after the facelift in 2022. The 50e BMW hybrid engine also has quite some problems in the X5. Are they solved?

Will the Panamera PHEV be more reliable? Some bad posts about that too. Or are those just the older models and are they solved after the facelift in 2022. The 50e BMW hybrid engine also has quite some problems in the X5. Are they solved?

And then after forgetting all the defects on my Taycan. And driving around for a week I realize it is such a great drive. And reconsider everything again. Even with the 4 CT good acceleration. Nice steering feel. comfortable. Luggage space just enough with trunk and frunk.

 

[snstevens]

I love the Taycan and plan to keep it (or the newer version) as my primary car.

However, I’m working on getting my wife into a more environmentally friendly SUV. She drives a Lexus RX450h at present, and we’ve looked at both EVs and PHEVs.

I was really surprised when I heard from our Lexus dealer recently that they are offering the RX 450e (EV with 220 miles range) with a 30 day Reservation option. Basically you get 30 days free rental of an equivalent gas-powered RX over a 3 year period. The goal is to get customers to buy into EVs but give them comfort that for longer trips they can just borrow/reserve an ICE car. Not sure if there is a paid option after the 30 days is used up, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is.

Just thought I’d share since this is an interesting way to get people into EVs and yet provide for the less frequent longer trips.

 

[McgR]

I love the Taycan and plan to keep it (or the newer version) as my primary car.

However, I’m working on getting my wife into a more environmentally friendly SUV. She drives a Lexus RX450h at present, and we’ve looked at both EVs and PHEVs.

I was really surprised when I heard from our Lexus dealer recently that they are offering the RX 450e (EV with 220 miles range) with a 30 day Reservation option. Basically you get 30 days free rental of an equivalent gas-powered RX over a 3 year period. The goal is to get customers to buy into EVs but give them comfort that for longer trips they can just borrow/reserve an ICE car. Not sure if there is a paid option after the 30 days is used up, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is.

Just thought I’d share since this is an interesting way to get people into EVs and yet provide for the less frequent longer trips.

that is ineteresting indeed. A thing to consider when having young children and having to plan holidays around school holidays everyone will want to rent at the same time with a possible shortage.

 

[Gino]

Since you mentioned the cost of rebuilding an engine twice now, I feel compelled to respond. I've had to rebuild the engine of my 996; I didn't go nuts with upgrades or mods (bored to 3.8l & resleeved by LN Engineering, Pauter rods, Woessner pistons, all other parts genuine Porsche, no head porting/polishing). All in all, this was ~27k. The list of parts was ~2 pages, multiple specialists were involved at different steps - rebuilding an engine is neither an easy endeavor, nor a cheap one. One could argue it did not make financial sense for my car (I'm not very smart about this kind of decision).

The current price of replacement batteries simply denotes the scarcity - of demand, and of the offering. I've no doubt things will improve - dramatically - as the EV market grows (in age and size), allowing for a healthy recycling industry to establish itself.

Compared to rebuilding an engine, reconditioning or re-manufacturing an EV battery is positively trivial.

I would hope replacing a battery would become trivial at some point. $60K to replace the full main battery is at least 2X the cost to rebuild or replace with a certified Porsche rebuilt motor.
If Porsche got down to $30K or less I would have no issue if I had to replace my main battery after 15 years to get back my range. If the prices stay at $60K or more then I would likely just drive my glorified golf cart around town...

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I would hope replacing a battery would become trivial at some point. $60K to replace the full main battery is at least 2X the cost to rebuild or replace with a certified Porsche rebuilt motor.
If Porsche got down to $30K or less I would have no issue if I had to replace my main battery after 15 years to get back my range. If the prices stay at $60K or more then I would likely just drive my glorified golf cart around town...

Not sure where the 60k number came from. The sticker price for batteries is 50k, but they can be found online for just-under-40. A full tech day at 250$/hr comes to 2.5k; heck, double that and add another k for bolts/fluids etc, and it comes to mid-40k. That’s now, with insufficient supplies, a severe lack of qualified techs and zero aftermarket/independent presence. I’d expect that number to come down, quickly and significantly. (Seems like one could buy Taycans for a song in the UK, cut out the headlamps and ship to Germany, and the batteries to the US. I want royalties.)

on the other hand, with this inflation 60k will maybe buy you a deviated stitching package in 15 years.

 

[Gino]

Not sure where the 60k number came from. The sticker price for batteries is 50k, but they can be found online for just-under-40. A full tech day at 250$/hr comes to 2.5k; heck, double that and add another k for bolts/fluids etc, and it comes to mid-40k. That’s now, with insufficient supplies, a severe lack of qualified techs and zero aftermarket/independent presence. I’d expect that number to come down, quickly and significantly. (Seems like one could buy Taycans for a song in the UK, cut out the headlamps and ship to Germany, and the batteries to the US. I want royalties.)

on the other hand, with this inflation 60k will maybe buy you a deviated stitching package in 15 years.

Somewhere on this forum the itemized breakdown for the full main battery replacement under warranty showed the charges submitted to Porsche around $58K give or take. At that price it would be 2X what I was quoted to replace my 2000 Boxster motor with a certified rebuilt engine if I needed it rather than just a repair.
I guess the same goes for the main battery which has 12 or 13 modules with 12 LG battery pouches in each module. I've been told by my Porsche service manager that it takes 10-12 hours to get to the main battery modules to replace one or all modules so it may not be worth it to just repair or replace one module when the labor to replace it is $2500 to $3000 in labor.
the NTSB is actually worried about unlicensed 3rd party or DIY repair/replacement of EV battery modules leading to fire risks.
I have no doubt LG and other battery manufacturers will be happy to sell replacement batteries for OEM or licensed 3rd party repair shops to replace batteries like you would buy a remanufactured transmission or ICE motor for $5K to $10K for motor traditional ICE vehicles. I've paid $4000 to $6500 for transmissions in my Hummer and my Mercedes Sprinter from third party shops. The GM dealer wanted $8000 to replace the transmission but Dodge/Mercedes wanted $17K+ with no guarantee of the exact price. I don't expect Porsche, Mercedes or Tesla to be any different on pricing if you decide to use the dealer for replacing the main battery.
The big question will be... What 3rd party shops will be able to do these repairs/replacements safely under "right to repair" laws in the US.
I would expect these shops would be able to make really good money selling replacements at $20K to $30K if they can insure the batteries and the BMS for a decent warranty period.
I've been told by my dealer that they do battery replacements in a special fireproof booth/room for safety purposes. Not sure how true this is. I was also told by my dealer that the Porsche battery design allows them to replace one or more individual LG battery packs in a module which fail. This may be true but what I've learned recently that they don't actually do that at the dealership. All modules used in a repair/replacement of a customer vehicle requires fully certified rebuilt module(s) or new module(s). This makes sense since they have no means to rebuild & re-certify battery modules on site.
As EVs become more prevalent I'm sure the replacement of battery packs will become big business just as engines & transmissions are on ICE vehicles where there are numerous options for 3rd party service.

 

[snstevens]

Somewhere on this forum the itemized breakdown for the full main battery replacement under warranty showed the charges submitted to Porsche around $58K give or take. At that price it would be 2X what I was quoted to replace my 2000 Boxster motor with a certified rebuilt engine if I needed it rather than just a repair.
I guess the same goes for the main battery which has 12 or 13 modules with 12 LG battery pouches in each module. I've been told by my Porsche service manager that it takes 10-12 hours to get to the main battery modules to replace one or all modules so it may not be worth it to just repair or replace one module when the labor to replace it is $2500 to $3000 in labor.
the NTSB is actually worried about unlicensed 3rd party or DIY repair/replacement of EV battery modules leading to fire risks.
I have no doubt LG and other battery manufacturers will be happy to sell replacement batteries for OEM or licensed 3rd party repair shops to replace batteries like you would buy a remanufactured transmission or ICE motor for $5K to $10K for motor traditional ICE vehicles. I've paid $4000 to $6500 for transmissions in my Hummer and my Mercedes Sprinter from third party shops. The GM dealer wanted $8000 to replace the transmission but Dodge/Mercedes wanted $17K+ with no guarantee of the exact price. I don't expect Porsche, Mercedes or Tesla to be any different on pricing if you decide to use the dealer for replacing the main battery.
The big question will be... What 3rd party shops will be able to do these repairs/replacements safely under "right to repair" laws in the US.
I would expect these shops would be able to make really good money selling replacements at $20K to $30K if they can insure the batteries and the BMS for a decent warranty period.
I've been told by my dealer that they do battery replacements in a special fireproof booth/room for safety purposes. Not sure how true this is. I was also told by my dealer that the Porsche battery design allows them to replace one or more individual LG battery packs in a module which fail. This may be true but what I've learned recently that they don't actually do that at the dealership. All modules used in a repair/replacement of a customer vehicle requires fully certified rebuilt module(s) or new module(s). This makes sense since they have no means to rebuild & re-certify battery modules on site.
As EVs become more prevalent I'm sure the replacement of battery packs will become big business just as engines & transmissions are on ICE vehicles where there are numerous options for 3rd party service.

At this post I reported on an estimated battery replacement cost for a Taycan of ~$30k - approximately equal to an ICE rebuild of a 911. There were several sources quoted in the post.

For the record, I've not seen $60k anywhere.

 

[Genau]

At this post I reported on an estimated battery replacement cost for a Taycan of ~$30k - approximately equal to an ICE rebuild of a 911. There were several sources quoted in the post.

For the record, I've not seen $60k anywhere.

Here:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/baseline-for-hv-battery-soh-performance.12815/post-279964​

$60k comes from $44,400 + $13,065 core charge if the old battery is not serviceable, plus labor. So if you drive over a road hazard that dents the case, you or your insurance company are out $57,465 plus labor. At the rate Taycans depreciate (sorry to bring up that topic!), the insurance company may total the car in that scenario.

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