POLL - How much would you pay for Porsche Connect

[Murph7355]

What they need to do is ensure, to degrees, an upgrade path of the guts of the system.

I suspect that will end up being third party driven until Porsche (etc) realise (again) that there's money in it. As an example, latterly Porsche latched onto upgrades to infotainment systems of everything from air cooled 911s up to 997.1s...after third parties had been doing it for years.

With Porsche offering 15yr warranties on the non-battery side of their cars, I think that's the window they need to consider.

Sponsored

 

[feye]

Of course people would like it for free. However most will pay the current price, so that means it's worth it to them, despite their protests.

I would like to offer a counter point to free. If something is free, there is absolutely no incentive to keep it running well. Yea, I know, brand image, etc. but that means marketing needs to now include maintenance of cloud servers and apps and car firmware in their "brand image" budget. Yes, turns out people don't want to work for free, electricity and internet is not free, hardware is not free. Maintaining internet connected devices to keep then secure for 20+ years is actually REALLY expensive (go ahead, show me a 20 year old cell phone which is secure today, or a PC, or any other internet connected device produced 20+ years ago which can still stay secure on today's internet). Put it this way, if a free service is out, you can get your $0 back for each day of however many weeks or months it's broken. On the flip side, if you pay for a service, there is a financial incentive to keep things working, because if you have to refund everyone, you lose money.

Well they pay because they stuck with a very expensive car.

I don't renew my subscription, because it offeres next to nothing! The fact that I should pay for a really poorly implemented app and an immense complicated and slow backend often rendered the simple service of switching on the AC remotely non functional.

I use the App for my Mercedes EQA and for my Zeekr. Both Apps are better and the car is faster to react, both are free! My Zeekr says 27% SoC and 283km remaining range!

 

[whitex]

Well they pay because they stuck with a very expensive car.

They knew the terms and approximate price when buying the car, so they were prepared to pay for it. If they are in fact paying the subscription, that means they decided it's worth it, or else they would not pay it, like you. If connectivity subscription was at the top of their list, above all else, they'd buy an old Tesla. I sold 4 used Model S'es with free lifetime premium connectivity and free lifetime DC charging too. the cheapest was $35K IIRC. So people do have a choice. Their choice reflects what they value more.

 

[chun]

What are you basing these assertions on? I can say this:

1. I have explicitly filed "do not share my personal data" paperwork with Porsche.
2. I know that it had some effect, because before I did that, there was "personalized" content in the TYD website, which turned into "nothing to see here" black boxes afterwards.
3. The non-Google navigation screen shows roads in colors corresponding to (relatively) real-time traffic and what at least purports to be live charger status. I guess I haven't actually gotten out and counted whether the numbers of available chargers matches what's on the screen, but there are numbers on the screen.

I am basing this on driving a taycan for 5 years now and having messed with all the settings

Look for a location by name with that privacy option on, let me know what it returns. On the 5–6 taycans I drive through the years, it was nothing

Go through a city where there’s traffic. Let me know if Taycan knows to redirect you with the option on. It won’t, it will tell you to wait 1-3h in traffic.

Cmon, these are simple things to check. The map is vastly inferior with privacy on, because it is actually Google maps that Taycan is using, so when you turn privacy on it turns all Google data off; because Google does not work without getting your data.

 

[chun]

I am really curious what will happen. The only car I know that has gone past 10 years is Tesla, but they've had OTA capabilities 13 years ago that Porsche hasn't even began to approach today, and their software is so much more updatable (vertical integration, Tesla doesn't have to pay all the Tier 1 suppliers to keep updating the software). Even Tesla will reach their limit, I am very curious to see what happens then. My speculation - they are hoping LTE is sunset, so all their old cars will just lose connectivity. The very first Teslas were sold with 3G, but Tesla did offer a paid LTE upgrade, so there are some 2012 Model S cars with LTE out there.

I've seen software support quotes of what it costs to maintain latest and greatest software on hardware which gets older and older - the costs grow exponentially. For example, let's say you have an embedded SoC running Linux version X. At some point, a new Linux kernel is released, and now you need to either build a team that monitors open source vulnerabilities (many per day) and ports fixes back to an unsupported kernel, or you have to port the new kernel and all your software to the old hardware, which is not always easy, especially if new kernel doesn't support old hardware, so you have to add that support yourself. LTS (Long Term Support) kernels for Linux are supported for about a decade, but you have to start the timer when you start developing with it, not when you release your product. Some automotive OS have longer support, but it also gets expensive the older they get, plus a lot of the internet connectivity software is not part of the OS. Bottom line is this, in order to keep a device securely connected to the internet, you have to actively maintain it, and that maintenance gets more expensive the older the hardware is, as everyone else moves to new hardware.

There are actually laws on that, in Europe

1. Lifetime of update obligations (R155)
UNECE Regulation 155 requires manufacturers to establish a CSMS that covers all phases of a vehicle’s life—development, production and post-production (i.e. in-use) operation. Critically, the “post-production phase” only ends when the last vehicle of a given type is no longer in use on the road. In effect, this means that security updates must be made available for as long as any unit of that model is still registered and operational—which in practice could be a decade or more


TL;DR: if my taycan is the last one on the road in 2097; and porsche is still a company at that point, by law they are required to give me security updates.

In Europe laws related to cars don’t have a specific lifetime, say 10 years, they are tied to the lifetime of the car, aka as long as it is on the road

 

[whitex]

There are actually laws on that, in Europe

1. Lifetime of update obligations (R155)
UNECE Regulation 155 requires manufacturers to establish a CSMS that covers all phases of a vehicle’s life—development, production and post-production (i.e. in-use) operation. Critically, the “post-production phase” only ends when the last vehicle of a given type is no longer in use on the road. In effect, this means that security updates must be made available for as long as any unit of that model is still registered and operational—which in practice could be a decade or more


TL;DR: if my taycan is the last one on the road in 2097; and porsche is still a company at that point, by law they are required to give me security updates.

In Europe laws related to cars don’t have a specific lifetime, say 10 years, they are tied to the lifetime of the car, aka as long as it is on the road

What exactly is CSMS in this context?

 

[chun]

What exactly is CSMS in this context?

Cyber Security Management System

 

[whitex]

Cyber Security Management System

Ok, so a Taycan just bricking its internet connection after 10 or 15 years would satisfy this requirement. Connectivity is not required for Taycan operation today, it just makes it more convenient.

So to circle to your example, when your Taycan is the last one on the road in 2097, it will not have any operation connectivity features, unless you hack it, then it's on you to keep it secure.

 

[chun]

Ok, so a Taycan just bricking its internet connection after 10 or 15 years would satisfy this requirement. Connectivity is not required for Taycan operation today, it just makes it more convenient.

So to circle to your example, when your Taycan is the last one on the road in 2097, it will not have any operation connectivity features, unless you hack it, then it's on you to keep it secure.

How will porsche keep updating it to keep it secure without internet connectivity?

Make the owner go to the service 1-3 times a week?

Let’s be real

The current 718 was banned from selling in Europe because it doesn’t meet this specific new requirement ; and they were still required to make sure the car still offers some security for the next 10 years.

I don’t think porsche would rather pay services guys thousands on a mass sales car, rather than keep updates rolling

 

[whitex]

How will porsche keep updating it to keep it secure without internet connectivity?

Make the owner go to the service 1-3 times a week?

Let’s be real

They no longer need to update it, as the threat surface for any cyber attack no longer includes the connection to external networks. Another way to say it, there is no cyber threats once the car permanently bricks its connection to the outside world.

 

[chun]

They no longer need to update it, as the threat surface for any cyber attack no longer includes the connection to external networks. Another way to say it, there is no cyber threats once the car permanently bricks its connection to the outside world.

Only that that’s not true; as the car still gets internet from your phone for Spotify and the like.

And it’s not true in a legal way either; as the law forces them to offer security updates for the lifetime of the car, not until they deem it unnecessary.

The deemed it unnecessary on the 718; so eu told them that the car is unnecessary anymore and to stop selling it And they are still forced to service it security patches for 10 years - and I have a feeling porsche would have much rather done it online.

While I don’t have all the ins and outs, this is a very strict requirement in europe. As cars get more advanced, so does the risk they pose in the case of them getting hacked. How long until a terorist sends a self driving car into a Christmas market? Well, Europe already asked this question

 

[whitex]

Only that that’s not true; as the car still gets internet from your phone for Spotify and the like.

They will brick all Spotify, Apple Music, and likely Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, in other words all external connectivity. It won't matter much, as Apple will no longer support older cars anyways (see any 20 year Apple devices still updated today?), etc. In other words, Taycan will become an unconnected car. There will likely be some software update to allow you keep local user profiles, etc, but for the most part it will be no different than my 2001 911 C4.

The deemed it unnecessary on the 718; so eu told them that the car is unnecessary anymore and to stop selling it

Yes, but they are not on the hook of updating existing ones. So yes, in 2097 Porsche will not be allowed to sell new 2020 Taycans like yours.

How long until a terorist sends a self driving car into a Christmas market? Well, Europe already asked this question

Exactly, hence the bricking of all external connectivity to remove this possibility. If physical access is in scope of attacks, I can rig a 1908 Ford Model T with modern remote controls to do this.

 

[chun]

They will brick all Spotify, Apple Music, and likely Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, in other words all external connectivity.

For which, shockingly, there are other laws that don't allow them to do that. Quite a few in fact, as apple was forced to find out quite a few times (battery in iphone 6 being the first one that comes to mind).

And that's ignoring the bad media they would get, from them bircking a car that they sold in the range of hundreds of thousands, and publicaly claimed to have as porsche approved for 15 years(so 2040 in case of a 2025 taycan).

But sure...

Again, maybe in America what you describe would happen. In EU, not so much. And EU will take companies to court if they dodge the law, making sure the law gets updated and it never happens again.

Also, why would you assume that if I keep my car for decades, I will also keep the same phone? Or are you implying that Apple will stop offering apple carplay on Iphone 37 Pro Max? Case in which it will still connect to the car and to internet at the same time, making it a vulnerability. Which Porsche would have to account for in their security patches until the last taycan drives on roads

Times are changing, and in europe, laws follow those times.

 

[whitex]

For which, shockingly, there are other laws that don't allow them to do that. Quite a few in fact, as apple was forced to find out quite a few times (battery in iphone 6 being the first one that comes to mind).

Are you telling me that iPhone 6 are still officially supported by Apple in Europe (i.e. still getting updated to latest iOS and patches)?

 

[chun]

Are you telling me that iPhone 6 are still officially supported by Apple in Europe (i.e. still getting updated to latest iOS and patches)?

No, but actually they do. They get security patches once or twice a year, even 11 years later, by law - as quite a few are still in use.

What I am saying is, they tried to brick their phones, aka reduce the output of the battery as the battery was degarding too quickly, instead of replacing the batteries. And EU sued them for breaking the law.

So Posche intentionally removing support for apple car play, android auto, spotify, etc - to "isolate" their car from the internet, to therefore not have to keep up with security patches; would also fall under the same law, and would not be allowed.

Sponsored