[opinion] - hmmm…VW/Audi/Porsche may be in trouble…

[pjg03d]

I think Porsche is conflating EV with modern tech car. Customers cars with modern feature sets, and BEV drive train is just one of such modern features customers want. Even in ICE cars, customers want modern features, but Porsche thinks if they stay with old drive train technology, they will capture customers who don't want new tech for anything, even infotainment or usability. Maybe they are right to some degree and they will capture some customers who don't like change (maybe there will be a quarter million 911 with an in-dash 8-track player available). I sure hope they have a long term game plan though, once you know, the old customers die off and museums have enough old Porsches.

I think they are conflating luxury segments with general consumer sentiment. There is a high demand for EVs - just not in the $100k+ range (or, you know, $125k+ with options that are standard on $50k cars today).

Sponsored

 

[daveo4EV]

Lots of demand for EV's in china - but no demand for Porsche's $200k EV's - Porsche is very very confused puppy…

 

[whitex]

Lots of demand for EV's in china - but no demand for Porsche's $200k EV's - Porsche is very very confused puppy…

I have a feeling the demand for $200K Porsche shrunk significantly because the buyers see a car with about the same power as the $50K EV, but less modern usability features. In other words they don’t see a benefit that justifies the huge price difference. Porsche’s legacy marketing strategy which put horsepower and straight line acceleration from standstill (launch control!) front and center as source of value (most high level trim comparisons list highlight those 2 metrics to justify as much as 2x price difference between lowest and highest trim), is probably biting them in the ass right now, as that doesn't compare well against EVs.

 

[Jasper4S]

I have a feeling the demand for $200K Porsche shrunk significantly because the buyers see a car with about the same power as the $50K EV, but less modern usability features. In other words they don’t see a benefit that justifies the huge price difference. Porsche’s legacy marketing strategy which put horsepower and straight line acceleration from standstill (launch control!) front and center as source of value (most high level trim comparisons list highlight those 2 metrics to justify as much as 2x price difference between lowest and highest trim), is probably biting them in the ass right now, as that doesn't compare well against EVs.

Wasn’t this the case for is already? Tesla m3p is already a cheap alternative in straight line. I never considered it as an alternative. Not sure nowadays I am doing that with all the other options. Maybe only Audi a6 EV or BMW 5 series EV. But those are around 100k and 150k if you take the performance versions.

 

[Murph7355]

.... Porsche’s legacy marketing strategy which put horsepower and straight line acceleration from standstill (launch control!) front and center as source of value (most high level trim comparisons list highlight those 2 metrics to justify as much as 2x price difference between lowest and highest trim), is probably biting them in the ass right now, as that doesn't compare well against EVs.

That is biting them in the arse on any powertrain.

The pool of people prepared to salivate over the stupidity of GTx order book processes is diminishing. All vendors at that end are struggling to maintain ancient ways as new entrants into the buyers' market cannot be arsed with it.

Porsche are busy blaming EV, but their problems are deeper IMO.

Have said it before, the Taycan is an incredible vehicle. But they screwed the pooch on J1.1 during Covid and supply chain issues, and have not properly backed their product in myriad ways (quick, customer focused fixes to common issues, warranty, upgrade path). They have been stuck in a 30yr old mindset and the floor will be wiped with them by new manufacturers and those who see the light quickly.

Some of this is incredibly easy to fix. They just need to change the way they are thinking.

 

[whitex]

Wasn’t this the case for is already? Tesla m3p is already a cheap alternative in straight line. I never considered it as an alternative. Not sure nowadays I am doing that with all the other options. Maybe only Audi a6 EV or BMW 5 series EV. But those are around 100k and 150k if you take the performance versions.

You didn't, but plenty of people did. When I attended a Porsche organized event for reservation holders back in 2022, about half of them came in Teslas (myself included), even more had at least one Tesla in their garage (I had 2). As much as you will try to convince people that Taycan and Model S are not the same cars, plenty of people cross shopped them. Heck, Porsche designed the Taycan to be same size as the Model S. I liked the Taycan CT more than the Model S, so I picked one up, but it costed a ton more money for the same performance (I had to go to Taycan Turbo to match the acceleration of my then dated Model S, so that it doesn't feel like a step down). Today, that price gap is even greater (Model S Performance went down in price and up in performance, Taycan went up in price and less up in performance). I enjoy my cars more than the average buyer, so I could justify the price difference to myself. I would have a harder time doing it today (probably the only saving grace for the Taycan is that I could buy a CT4 and aftermarket tune it to above Turbo power - yes, I'm one of those who doesn't give a rat's ass about the badge on the back of the car, I just want the performance for me).

 

[Caraholic]

Porsche has just lost the plot on pricing. It’s through all their vehicles too not just the taycan. Seen a base 992.2 yesterday with an MSRP of $196k. Not sure how anyone can justify that for a base 911 that is easy 488 money. I can afford a new one but they are just not worth it to me at these inflated prices.

 

[pjg03d]

You didn't, but plenty of people did. When I attended a Porsche organized event for reservation holders back in 2022, about half of them came in Teslas (myself included), even more had at least one Tesla in their garage (I had 2). As much as you will try to convince people that Taycan and Model S are not the same cars, plenty of people cross shopped them. Heck, Porsche designed the Taycan to be same size as the Model S. I liked the Taycan CT more than the Model S, so I picked one up, but it costed a ton more money for the same performance (I had to go to Taycan Turbo to match the acceleration of my then dated Model S, so that it doesn't feel like a step down). Today, that price gap is even greater (Model S Performance went down in price and up in performance, Taycan went up in price and less up in performance). I enjoy my cars more than the average buyer, so I could justify the price difference to myself. I would have a harder time doing it today (probably the only saving grace for the Taycan is that I could buy a CT4 and aftermarket tune it to above Turbo power - yes, I'm one of those who doesn't give a rat's ass about the badge on the back of the car, I just want the performance for me).

What performance factors did you consider comparable between the Model S and Taycan other than acceleration?

 

[Jasper4S]

Apart from being expensive four-door sedans that happen to be EVs, they share little else. They are very different cars designed for different needs.

There is nothing unusual about Porsche’s pricing. The brand has traditionally appealed to professionals such as doctors, lawyers, and business executives. Porsches have always been aspirational cars, with the 911 remaining the brand’s most iconic model. Other models such as the Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, Taycan, and even the 718 cater to a broader audience of buyers who can afford a high-end, discretionary purchase. These vehicles primarily serve as luxury alternatives within their respective segments rather than exclusive sports cars.

When compared to Audi, BMW, and Lexus, the Porsche lineup roughly corresponds as follows:

Cayenne → Audi Q8 → BMW X5 → Lexus RX or RZ

Macan → Audi Q6 e-tron (or Q5 for ICE) → BMW X3 → Lexus NX

Panamera → Audi A8 or A7 → BMW 6 Series Gran Coupé → Lexus LS or ES

Taycan → Audi e-tron GT → BMW i4 → Lexus RZ or upcoming LF-ZC

718 → Audi TT → BMW 2 Series or Z4 → Lexus LC or RC

What I’m trying to say is that the non-911 Porsches are essentially expensive alternatives within their segments. Their higher price makes them desirable and gives them a certain status. Whether that premium is fully justified is open to interpretation. Believing that the Taycan is objectively the best in its class might be a bit self-assured, as decisions in this price range are often driven more by emotion than by pure rationality.

Returning to the topic of this discussion, my view is that China has transformed the global car industry, not just the electric vehicle market. That said, Porsche is in no real trouble. The time we spend debating this online is negligible compared to the efforts of the many people within the Volkswagen Group who work full-time on shaping its future, backed by real data, genuine insights, and extensive market knowledge.

The real risk for Porsche lies in being a publicly traded company. Shareholder pressure can shift focus from engineering excellence to short-term profit. (Look at the SW issues for all Volkswagen Autogroup brands) As long as decisions are driven by engineers rather than accountants, Porsche’s identity will remain intact. Luckily the Taycan drives like a scapel while the weight is Range Rover like. So it seems engineers are still doing what they should do.

 

[pjg03d]

The real risk for Porsche lies in being a publicly traded company. Shareholder pressure can shift focus from engineering excellence to short-term profit. (Look at the SW issues for all Volkswagen Autogroup brands) As long as decisions are driven by engineers rather than accountants, Porsche’s identity will remain intact. Luckily the Taycan drives like a scapel while the weight is Range Rover like. So it seems engineers are still doing what they should do.

This is really the heart of it. There aren't many companies that have been able to thread the needle successfully, weighing shareholder demands and brand+product integrity.

 

[whitex]

What performance factors did you consider comparable between the Model S and Taycan other than acceleration?

For me it was the handling that tipped the scale. My Model S was a P85DL+ - a P85D equipped with the battery power upgrade (internal battery fuse replacement) and the Perfomance Plus Air Suspension (discontinued mid 2015). It actually handled not bad (way better than regular Air Suspension, which I experienced every time I drove my wife's newer Model S). At the time, the highest trim I was able to test drive was a 4S, and it felt "broken" on the highway when I put my foot down - it just didn't have the butter smooth instant acceleration I've grown to expect from a performance EV, and enjoy using (the highway was pretty much the only place I ever floored my Teslas, or today my Taycan - I've never used launch control on either car, other than once to test that it works). So, even though lacking power, I loved the way Taycan handled on the test drives (reminded me of my 911 back in the day, hiding the weight well for such a heavy vehicle). I also wanted to get away from Tesla's perma-beta software (constant updates), was hoping Porsche as an experienced car builder would deliver me solid, user friendly software on delivery day - that didn't quite turn out that way, but it is what it is. So I waited both for the CT, as needed the larger trunk space to replace the model S usage, and for Turbo, for the power. Took 20 months and that's once I opened up my search to nation-wide and called almost every dealer in the country to finally get my CT Turbo built and delivered. Loved it since!

All that said, that was me. I may not be a typical customer. The fact is Taycans got quite a few people cross shopping against a Tesla, or moving from Tesla. Not all of them cared so much about the acceleration (most ordered lower trims of the Taycan, so at least they were not willing to pay and/or wait for more power). As the price gap between Taycan and other EVs increases, the target potential customers drop out. It doesn't help that those same customers now have a number of non-Tesla EV options, something which was not true in the first years of the Taycan.

 

[Wivenhoe]

Having bought one of the first Lexus RZ450e Takumi’s in the UK, I can absolutely tell you it is not a competitor for the Cayenne ! The RX may be but the RZ is a very poor EV and car. I know you’re comparing against ICE’s but the RZ range is so poor Lexus have had to offer the free use of an ICE Lexus for up to 42 days over 3 years !

 

[Wivenhoe]

There is an article about Porsche and the Macan 4S vs X3 M50 vs SQ5. Macan comes 2nd. The interesting thing for this thread is what it says about Porsche‘s difficulty.

 

[pjg03d]

There is an article about Porsche and the Macan 4S vs X3 M50 vs SQ5. Macan comes 2nd. The interesting thing for this thread is what it says about Porsche‘s difficulty.

Found the article, would be interested to see where they got their sales figure info.

 

[daveo4EV]

Rivian CEO says the company tore down a highly popular Chinese EV. Here's what he thought.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/rivian-ceo-says-company-tore-082101048.html

"I'd say it's a really well executed, heavily vertically-integrated technology platform," Scaringe said, referring to how the company develops the car's tech stack in-house. "Nicely done."

"Cost — we understood how they've arrived there," Scaringe said, adding that "there's nothing we learned from the teardown."

The CEO points to macroeconomic factors like the low cost of labor and the Chinese government's support for EVs.

"The cost of capital is zero or negative, meaning they get paid to put up plants," Scaringe said of Chinese companies. "It's a very different opportunity."

Porsche doesn't do "vertical integration"
Porsche has a high cost of labor
Porsche does not have "zero cost" capital or negative cost capital

in fact Porsche has the "opposite" of much of what Chinese EV's have…

Sponsored