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Hate for electrics saddens me.

snstevens

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I see. So, would the paddle regen be a function of how far you push it like the brake pedal or a function of speed and “gear selection” like a PDK (would also apply to manual). If the former, I’m not sure I see much difference between that and just using the brake pedal. It just becomes a hand brake. The latter would be more interesting, to me; but a niche market, I’m sure.

Or maybe there’s something entirely novel that can/should be done instead. I don’t know.
I was thinking that it would be a step function at each click of the paddle shifter, not a continuous change in torque as you get with the brake pedal.
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WasserGKuehlt

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But I'm surprised that this question of tire particles is such a BFD! Burning 1 gallon of gas in an ICE car consumes ~6 pounds (yes pounds) of carbon, generating ~20 pounds (again, pounds) of CO2. Let's assume that the 1 gallon takes you 30 miles - how much tire particulate matter are we talking about over that distance? According to the referenced article, an ICE car sheds 116 mg of tire waste per mile, and an EV sheds 140 mg each mile, however, driving the EV avoids generating 0.67 pounds of CO2 in that same 1 mile distance.

So what should we be talking about?
I think @optik382 's point was that we ought to be mindful of trading off non-toxic emissions for toxic ones; we might slow down climate change but we may poison ourselves. I would agree that direct mass comparisons don't really help - they mask the risks; at the same time, we would need to have a better understanding of exactly how toxic those other emissions are (brake/tire/road dust)(as in 'what are dangerous levels', how far are we from them).
 

Fish Fingers

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I see it as one of those "next highest nail" engineering problems.
Reminds me of when I tried 'pruning' a tree in the garden.

Every time I cut a branch, another one suddenly looked too long.

Ended up looking like a Telegraph pole with a few random sticks attached and a 'wig' of leaves on the top. ?
 

Amelio

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My kids summed it up best. Back in 2015 Tesla loaned us a car over the weekend. It put out about 200 hp more than our C63. When I asked them which they preferred they responded with this: if you can have the power without the noise, why would you want the noise? I know the older c63 V8 doesn’t sound like a 911 but it did sound pretty nice. They preferred the quiet acceleration of the EV. These are millennials that didn’t grow up with muscle cars or high revving S2000’s like I did.
 

f1eng

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My kids summed it up best. Back in 2015 Tesla loaned us a car over the weekend. It put out about 200 hp more than our C63. When I asked them which they preferred they responded with this: if you can have the power without the noise, why would you want the noise? I know the older c63 V8 doesn’t sound like a 911 but it did sound pretty nice. They preferred the quiet acceleration of the EV. These are millennials that didn’t grow up with muscle cars or high revving S2000’s like I did.
I am 73 and worked in motor racing my entire career and I agree with your kids.
If it has to be noisy I certainly prefer a nice noise, and it is fun for short pleasure trips but on long journeys it is just tiring IMO.

I was looking for a quiet comfortable car with a good turn of speed and good handling when required. The Taycan cannot be bettered for those criteria at present IMO.
 


Tsingtao

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Actually a handful of these "talking points" are actually a thing so for you to dismiss them from your side of the argument makes you no better than them.

We have both, always will, and I completely understand each type of vehicles strong and weak points. I don't understand why it has to be an either/or........

I think a lot of the "religion" between the two viewpoints is actually fueled by the EV community (pun intended). You can list out all the things that makes you favor EV over ICE but the moment you place a higher priority on "saving the planet" is the moment you will lose the attention of a large portion of the enthusiast community. If you honestly were to analyze all the data you would be forced to come to the conclusion that EV's effect on the planet is purely symbolic. It makes people feel like they are actually contributing something which I suppose isn't a bad thing but it's not reality.
Good points, but I'd respectfully disagree with your statement about EVs only symbolically contributing something to the planet. At the very minimum, EVs are keeping the air cleaner. If you don't believe this, sit in your ICE vehicle with the engine running and your garage door closed for a few minutes and you will have a better appreciation for just how dirty ICE technology is.
 

mjw930

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Good points, but I'd respectfully disagree with your statement about EVs only symbolically contributing something to the planet. At the very minimum, EVs are keeping the air cleaner. If you don't believe this, sit in your ICE vehicle with the engine running and your garage door closed for a few minutes and you will have a better appreciation for just how dirty ICE technology is.
That’s fine but don’t mistake my comments as an indication of my level of understanding of the situation or my appreciation of the merits of EV’s. My major disagreements aren’t with the issues being discussed here, they are with the way this issue is being represented and the policies being put in place to address them. Both of those topics are not ones that I would even attempt to debate in the context of a recreational forum such as this.

And to be clear, I am not a troll, I am an avid car enthusiast who is excited about the future so long as that future isn’t one dictated by government fiat or radical social activism.
 

outie

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Why not having both?
Exactly. As much as I am used to driving EVs since 2016, I occasionally missed the sounds and fun of ICE sports cars. When I was at a situation where I could afford an additional car, I didn’t hesitate to add a McLaren 600LT to the stable, and subsequently a 720S, and enjoyed both technologies. The experience of driving a carbon tub / lightweight vehicle is simply irreplaceable by EVs.
 


bluedonkey

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Yes, most of those are hyperbole, most reasonably intelligent adults don't believe the fodder in the list.

However, Winter Range, Charging infrastructure, Electrical grid capability, weight (specifically when referring the "Sports Cars") and inability to tow are all major shortcomings that could make an EV a non starter for a lot of people.
Winter range is overblown. On long drives in the winter, my efficiency is perhaps 0.1 mile/kWh less than in summer. For short journeys around town I agree it is worse, but then those are so short that the only real impact is that it costs me a little more to charge in the winter. ICE cars are also less efficient in the winter on short trips, and will therefore cost more to refuel.
 

bluedonkey

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Not trying to be pedantic, but... carbon emissions are of course a problem, because they lead to climate change / global warming, and yes tailpipe emissions cause local particulate toxicity. Tire emissions are toxic particles that get into the water and poison animal and plant life, and they are directly proportional to vehicle weight, and perhaps even more if we're talking about the torque of EVs. If I wasn't driving a 5,500lb Taycan, I would be driving a 3,500lb 911, "emitting" *at least* 35% less tire.

Check out this article, from a reputable news source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...ire-brake-tailpipes-emissions-pollution-cars/

To quote: "...Wear and tear on tires and brakes have been shown to produce increasingly more particle pollution, by mass, than car exhaust systems did in several real-world and test scenarios. Some of the particles are large enough to see with our eyes. Others are fine particles (known as PM 2.5, with diameters up to 2.5 microns) and ultrafine particles (known as PM 0.1, with diameters of 100 nanometers), which can enter through our bloodstream and harm our organs."

So... you are saying that tire emissions are insignificant. But the article above says they already outpace tailpipe emissions in California. I don't consider that "pure deflection/whataboutism." It seems like a real problem, and one of the many things that gets worse instead of better when we switch to EVs.

I still feel that *overall* EVs are a cleaner and more fun option, but brushing aside real data showing real issues is exactly the problem we are facing in this debate.
What I will tell you is that my tires on both the EVs I've owned have lasted longer than on my previous ICE cars, and when it comes to brake dust there is no contest. The Taycan's front wheels have almost no brake dust on them when I wash it. My wife's ICE car has a black film on the front wheels every time I wash it, and my old Mercedes roadsters were even worse.

The problem with the tire studies is that they assume weight is the only factor in tire wear, and that simply isn't true. This topic comes up a lot, and those doing long distances in EVs frequently report their tires lasting longer than equivalent ICE car tires, and brakes lasting a lot, lot longer (remember the Taycan has a max age on brake pads because they expect some will reach that before they wear enough to need replacement).

None of that is to say that the particles are not an issue, but they are very much not just an EV issue, and the evidence would suggest that EVs reduce, not increase, this type of pollution too.
 

WasserGKuehlt

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Winter range is overblown. On long drives in the winter, my efficiency is perhaps 0.1 mile/kWh less than in summer.
Looking briefly at my trip history, the difference is significant - .3 to .5 mi/kWh, or almost 30% better in summer. (1.9 and 1.7 winter vs 2.2 summer, both on trips up into the mountains.) This is for almost identical trips regarding distance, average speed and on the same tires/roof box.
Weirdly, my return trips in the winter appear to be more efficient than the same in the summer - 3.7 winter (@49mph) vs 2.9 summer (@56mph). I suspect I may have overindulged on the accelerator for this particular summer trip..
 

optik382

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What I will tell you is that my tires on both the EVs I've owned have lasted longer than on my previous ICE cars, and when it comes to brake dust there is no contest. The Taycan's front wheels have almost no brake dust on them when I wash it. My wife's ICE car has a black film on the front wheels every time I wash it, and my old Mercedes roadsters were even worse.

The problem with the tire studies is that they assume weight is the only factor in tire wear, and that simply isn't true. This topic comes up a lot, and those doing long distances in EVs frequently report their tires lasting longer than equivalent ICE car tires, and brakes lasting a lot, lot longer (remember the Taycan has a max age on brake pads because they expect some will reach that before they wear enough to need replacement).

None of that is to say that the particles are not an issue, but they are very much not just an EV issue, and the evidence would suggest that EVs reduce, not increase, this type of pollution too.
What evidence, though? Your personal vehicles?

https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000050465

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/replacing-ev-tires/#wear

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...but-the-dark-secret-is-tires/?sh=872a64f3831b

Anecdotally, my experience is the opposite to yours. My Bolt and my Taycan both eat tires faster when compared with previous vehicles I've owned. On brakes, 100% agree.

Auto makers and tire makers (as evidenced above) have found that EVs are harder on tires, by about 20%-30%. The upside is that it's spurred them to develop tires that are more abrasion resistant. (Glad there is competition here, otherwise they might have just bee happy to sell more tires more often!)

Hopefully the tech will trickle back into ICE tires and all vehicles will emit less tire pollution due to these improvements.
 

RMB

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Some of life's improvements that people poo pooed at first albeit can't live without now. Miicrowaves, hair blowers, telephone answering machines(voice mail), LED lights, internet, smartphones......Future Shock. Technology breeds technology. They hate it today but ultimately will have an EV or maybe some other alternative power sourced vehicle.
Congratulations all you early adopters.
 

bluedonkey

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What evidence, though? Your personal vehicles?

https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000050465

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/replacing-ev-tires/#wear

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...but-the-dark-secret-is-tires/?sh=872a64f3831b

Anecdotally, my experience is the opposite to yours. My Bolt and my Taycan both eat tires faster when compared with previous vehicles I've owned. On brakes, 100% agree.

Auto makers and tire makers (as evidenced above) have found that EVs are harder on tires, by about 20%-30%. The upside is that it's spurred them to develop tires that are more abrasion resistant. (Glad there is competition here, otherwise they might have just bee happy to sell more tires more often!)

Hopefully the tech will trickle back into ICE tires and all vehicles will emit less tire pollution due to these improvements.

Not just my experiences, but also some folks online who drive EVs for work (e.g.https://twitter.com/KateFantom/status/1614754824838316035?s=20). The difference though maybe the type of driving. Longer freeway drives are probably less abusive to EV tires than stop-start traffic, which is kind of what the Hyundai doc says - it is the pulling away from standstill that is harder on tires because of the instant torque. Most of our miles have been long freeway trips just cruising at 65-70 mph (honest).
 

Amelio

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It seems like the popular thing to do. I’m convinced it’s a lack of understanding. Some people get angry when they don’t understand something.

While in England I got into a heated discussion about EVs with an Uber driver. The conversation went poorly. My wife was worried she would get a bad review by the driver and said it felt uncomfortable being in the car. I felt bad and apologize to her and promised I wouldn’t do that again. This guy was convinced electricity cost more than gas.

A favourite author of mine James Clear (Atomic Habits) has a great way of handling people like this.

imagine the time you would save by simply saying: you might be right…and moving on?

I know it seems ridiculous to agree with people like this but you must admit it’s a heck of a lot easier than arguing with them for 20 minutes or so about how they can’t wait for an EV to charge, how producing lithium batteries damages environment more than burning fossil fuel, they don’t have enough range, can’t afford the insurance., and the list goes on.

it’s quite liberating not to get into it with them. Let them fill up their gas tanks, you charge up your batteries, and we all move on.
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