Sponsored

Someone Educate Mustang Block E Drivers!

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
Generally I do. I don't even mention it to them. But today I'm on a very lengthy road trip home and my first three charges were ALL blocked on the 350kW by MAch-Es. Seriously.

The first one I was like "bad luck."
Second one I was like "this is really a problem EA needs to solve somehow."
By the third one I was pissed.

I lost an hour of time (or more) because of driver ignorance or selfishness.

The problem with these Mach E's is they sit at the pump for almost an hour, where I'd be in and out in 20 mins or so ready to free it up for someone else.



As a matter of courtesy, if I am at 35% SoC or better I use the 150kW pumps because there is no benefit to the 350's.

It's a real disappointment when you've managed your drive perfectly to roll in with 5% SoC, excited for a really fast charge, only to be blocked by Mach Es.
Ha ha but perhaps not relying on Waze or ABRP and sticking with your 'trusty' PCM might avoid some disappointment with occupied stalls on arrival ?
Sponsored

 

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
It could go away sooner if they start charging for time at the "pump" rather than KWh, and the charge rate is proportional to the max charge capacity of the pump. This might even help with people who do have 350KW capable EVs, once their batteries get fuller, the charge rate slows down, so the person may just move to a slower charger to save money, but at the same time freeing up the 350KW "pump" for some other "thirsty" EV.
Not sure that would work out well or even motivate others to do so.

Porsche UK charge for juice and time whereas Ionity doesn't for 350kW - guess which ones are more popular?
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
The flow is adjusted automatically, right? The car's charger does this otherwise EVs would be exploding left, right and centre

What am I missing?
I think what @DerekS mean is to make all chargers identical, and load share the total capacity. So, rather than having 3x350KW and 6x150KW, you'd have 9 350KW capable chargers but all sharing a total of 1950KW (so is all 9 were low SoC Taycans, each would get 216 KW).

While this would make the situation somewhat better, it is more expensive to deploy, meaning less chargers deployed total (so maybe instead of 3x350 + 6x150 you'd get 7 350KW capable but sharing a 1950KW total). Better in some ways, worse for others (imagine @derekS was the 9th car at the 7 sharing chargers, where there would have been 9 if they were not sharing, so now he has to wait for 2 people to finish before even starting, now imagine those were 7 Leaf's! ;) ).
 
Last edited:

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
I think what @DerekS mean is to make all chargers identical, and load share the total capacity. So, rather than having 3x350KW and 6x150KW, you'd have 9 350KW capable chargers but all sharing a total of 1950KW (so is all 9 were low SoC Taycans, each would get 216 KW).

While this would make the situation somewhat better, it is more expensive to deploy, meaning less chargers deployed total (so maybe instead of 3x350 + 6x150 you'd get 7 350KW capable but sharing a 1950KW total). Better in some ways, worse for others (imagine @derekS was the 9th car at the 7 sharing chargers, where there would have been 9 if they were not sharing, so now he has to wait for 2 people to finish before even starting).
Isn't the logical solution to make all EVs charge at the max say 350kWh given the charger is in the car and not the EVSE.

Legacy aside, all new EVs should be equal in terms of their ability to charge at speed and something the car manufacturers ought to be joining forces on to ensure this is the case. Standardise on 800v architecture (less heat) and fit 350kWh chargers as standard.

Need to turn this growing problem on its head - we did it with petrol / diesel vehicles which for all intents and purposes fill at the same rate - EVs can and should be no different.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
As a matter of courtesy, if I am at 35% SoC or better I use the 150kW pumps because there is no benefit to the 350's.
If you got to the charger at >35% SoC and all but 350KW were taken, would you wait or start charging, What if a 150KW became available, would stick around watching and make sure you move your car as soon as 150KW becomes available? Now imagine a 350KW capable EV, do you stop charging and let them have it while you wait for the 150KW to free up?

I totally get your frustration. I've done some long distance driving with my Teslas and ran into situations where people would leave their cars to charge to 100% while I had to wait. But then I also ran into situations where I had to charge close to 100% in order to make it through a charger gap, and I might have pissed of someone else who only needed 80% and had to wait. I still remember being in Vancouver, BC (Canada) and back then there was superchargers there. I planned to use a ChaDeMo charger in the city, all I needed was 20 minutes. When I got there, sadly had to wait while a local Leaf and a Tesla were filling up an hour each - I talked with the Tesla owner, he was living in an apartment nearby without charging, so had to use the only public charger near his house. He was even nice enough to stop a bit earlier saying "I got enough through tomorrow, will just charge more then" so I could get going sooner.
 


whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
Isn't the logical solution to make all EVs charge at the max say 350kWh given the charger is in the car and not the EVSE.
Sure, in an ideal world, or perhaps MMT (or as I call it Mad Money Theory) left wing world where the government just prints as much money as they feel they need. In the real world however, money matters and budgets need to add up. Making all chargers 350KW capable would be more expensive to install, so even less charging stalls for the same budget. Even if you ignore the fact that 350KW charger itself will be more expensive than a 150KW one, remember, 350KW is like ~10 single family homes, so a 10 stall charger would require a 3.5GW "feed" and capacity from the local power plant akin to as 100 single family homes - actually probably higher typical homes almost never draw the max power sustained, while EV chargers do. Load balancing might be a good compromise, still cost more than split 350/150 deployments, but cheaper than all 350 deployment. The higher the cost, the less total chargers we get, and given that even with Taycans on the roads, it is very unlikely all stations would be running 350KW at the same time, it makes even more sense to save money by load balancing.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
Legacy aside, all new EVs should be equal in terms of their ability to charge at speed and something the car manufacturers ought to be joining forces on to ensure this is the case. Standardise on 800v architecture (less heat) and fit 350kWh chargers as standard.

Need to turn this growing problem on its head - we did it with petrol / diesel vehicles which for all intents and purposes fill at the same rate - EVs can and should be no different.
Again, costs come into play. EV's which can charge at 350KW cost more - batteries and charging electronics cost more money. Not everyone is willing to pay. Remember that most people with garages almost never need to charge outside of their homes. My wife has been driving Model S's since 2016, she only ever charged out of the home once, and even then it was a "just in case" on a longer trip (probably could have made it without that 15 minute supercharge).

PS> I was once stuck behind a large truck towing a boat which decided to fill up at a gas station. It took forever, even though they were using multiple pumps. I don't know what the total bill was, but I do remember one of the pumps connected to the boat was ~$850 (and that was at a time where my car costed me maybe $25 to fill up).
 

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
Sure, in an ideal world, or perhaps MMT (or as I call it Mad Money Theory) left wing world where the government just prints as much money as they feel they need. In the real world however, money matters and budgets need to add up. Making all chargers 350KW capable would be more expensive to install, so even less charging stalls for the same budget. Even if you ignore the fact that 350KW charger itself will be more expensive than a 150KW one, remember, 350KW is like ~10 single family homes, so a 10 stall charger would require a 3.5GW "feed" and capacity from the local power plant akin to as 100 single family homes - actually probably higher typical homes almost never draw the max power sustained, while EV chargers do. Load balancing might be a good compromise, still cost more than split 350/150 deployments, but cheaper than all 350 deployment. The higher the cost, the less total chargers we get, and given that even with Taycans on the roads, it is very unlikely all stations would be running 350KW at the same time, it makes even more sense to save money by load balancing.
On the contrary, economies of scale and the simplification would drive down the costs for all so I don't buy that part of the discussion.

Load balancing is already in play I would expect.

There is also something around trade descriptions I would assume - if I plug into a 350kW EVSE and paying for the privilege that I should reasonably expect to max out (in the knowledge that other factors are at play which would preclude that), if I don't I would surely be entitled to a cost reduction base on the max juice delivered - but I don't.
 


whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
There is also something around trade descriptions I would assume - if I plug into a 350kW EVSE and paying for the privilege that I should reasonably expect to max out (in the knowledge that other factors are at play which would preclude that), if I don't I would surely be entitled to a cost reduction base on the max juice delivered - but I don't.
You are getting a cost reduction if you end up charging slower, simply because you get charged per KWh, not per time spent at the charger. This is why my suggested solution is to start charging per time based on max available charge rate and let the market sort it out, i.e. if you want to pay 2x the money to charge your Mach-E at a 350KW charger, sure, but most drivers will probably prefer to charge at a 150KW station.
 
Last edited:

whitex

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Threads
87
Messages
8,198
Reaction score
7,236
Location
WA, USA
Vehicles
2023 Taycan TCT, 2024 Q8 eTron P+
Country flag
Not sure that would work out well or even motivate others to do so.

Porsche UK charge for juice and time whereas Ionity doesn't for 350kW - guess which ones are more popular?
Sounds like you have plenty of open Porsche UK chargers to use, so it worked, for the network which implemented charging based on time per max capacity. ;)
 
Last edited:

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
You are getting a cost reduction if you end up charging slower, simply because you get charged per KWh, not per time spent at the charger. This is why my suggested solution is to start charging per time based on max available charge rate and let the market sort it out, i.e. if you want to pay 3x the money to charge your Mach-E at a 350KW charger, sure, but most driver will probably prefer to charge at a 150KW station.
I mentioned earlier that in UK Porsche 350kWh EVSEs charge per kWh and time spent 75p or so compared to the same at Ionity (EA) who only charge for the juice. 35p.

There is no sliding scale - flat rate.
 

W1NGE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Adrian
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Threads
53
Messages
11,015
Reaction score
6,805
Location
Aberdeen, Scotland
Vehicles
992.2, ex GTS ST owner, Macan T
Country flag
Sounds like you have plenty of open Porsche UK chargers to use, so it worked, for the network which implemented charging based on time per max capacity. ;)
If only!

Typically there is a non EV or Cayenne Diesel parked there and did I mention that many are inaccessible outwith Porsche business hours!

We have only 4 (said 5 originally) dealerships in Scotland, 1 in Northern Ireland and 1 in the Republic of Ireland.
 
Last edited:

kort

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2021
Threads
44
Messages
2,296
Reaction score
1,536
Location
32082
Vehicles
'23 Lucid Air GT
Country flag
It's a real disappointment when you've managed your drive perfectly to roll in with 5% SoC, excited for a really fast charge, only to be blocked by Mach Es.
I think that while your complaints have some validity the real issue is that EA and the other providers are not installing enough chargers to keep up with the explosion of EVs hitting the road.

I don't have precise numbers but in the last year thousands of new EVs have been delivered but the numbers of chargers has not had an equivalent expansion. there are more manufacturers who have similar to porsche's arrangement that allows for free charging.

this lack of expansion of the chargers will cause congestion at the chargers and long waits.
 
OP
OP
DerekS

DerekS

Well-Known Member
First Name
Derek
Joined
May 25, 2021
Threads
119
Messages
3,213
Reaction score
5,530
Location
Los Gatos, CA
Vehicles
2025 Taycan GTS
Country flag
I think that while your complaints have some validity the real issue is that EA and the other providers are not installing enough chargers to keep up with the explosion of EVs hitting the road.

I don't have precise numbers but in the last year thousands of new EVs have been delivered but the numbers of chargers has not had an equivalent expansion. there are more manufacturers who have similar to porsche's arrangement that allows for free charging.

this lack of expansion of the chargers will cause congestion at the chargers and long waits.
You're absolutely correct. I got a glimpse of our future in EV-heavy California, the EA's I visited were generally full and I even had to wait for a turn once.

That is going to happen soon to all states as more people buy non-Tesla EVs.
Sponsored

 
 








Top