GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[whitex]

Ford has already announced Supercharger support via the Ford "blue oval" app

How is that going to prevent my Taycan charging using a borrowed adapter and a Ford account? I don't think charging integrated with the app means no plug-and-charge.

Sponsored

 

[daveo4EV]

How is that going to prevent my Taycan charging using a borrowed adapter and a Ford account?

I do not believe it will

this all goes to my "how strict" theory

I think for sufficiently motivated people once Ford/GM open the bottle it will be open for anyone that can do two things:

• bring their own adapter
• get an app installed/setup that allows supercharging

I do not believe the CCS1 protocol implementation at either the superchargers or inside the vehicle's offer sufficient meta-data for Tesla to actually "filter" the sessions and deny service…

this is no different that using the Porsche app to start a free 30 minute charging session at Electrify America for my son's 2022 Tesla Model Y w/CCS1 adapter…

once there are "apps" and "adapters" - if you're sufficiently motivated I believe you can "jury rig" supercharger access prior to "official" release dates…

but we'll have to see.

the reason this all can not be that heavily locked down is that the EV vendors have announced this will be supported on their existing CCS1 vehicles (w/physical adaptor) - and those existing vehicles don't have a lot of software "smarts" for dealing with charging or charging networks…and don't provide a lot of vehicle information to the CCS1 chargers (since there was no point).

given the requirement to backwards compatible with existing CCS1 vehicle's - it can't be all that locked down or strict.

 

[Scandinavian]

How is that going to prevent my Taycan charging using a borrowed adapter and a Ford account? I don't think charging integrated with the app means no plug-and-charge.

Would that really matter? I mean Tesla will get the revenue for the charge. If that is directed to Ford or anywhere else would not matter to them, as long as the account is in good standing.

I look at this the same way as I can charge my Tesla M3 at Ionity and use my Porsche card or app. Ionity will send the bill to my Porsche account, which is valid.?

 

[whitex]

finally the existing plug&charge "standard" does not offer support for multiple network vendors - so _IF_ a North American EV vendor supports plug&charge they support Electrify America…not Tesla

There is nothing stopping Tesla from trusting EA signed car authentication. Sure, EA then can pull a fast one on Tesla, but it would absolutely prevent most adapter sharing. At minimum, Tesla could just use plug-and-charge purely to identify the VIN of the car, if for nothing else than to make sure only approved models from approved manufacturers are allowed to supercharge with an adapter. Then again, once they got the VIN, they could also do the billing this way.

 

[whitex]

Would that really matter? I mean Tesla will get the revenue for the charge. If that is directed to Ford or anywhere else would not matter to them, as long as the account is in good standing.

I look at this the same way as I can charge my Tesla M3 at Ionity and use my Porsche card or app. Ionity will send the bill to my Porsche account, which is valid.?

Slightly different situation here in the US. If that was all Tesla cared about, they'd just open the network to anyone with an adapter, but they are not doing that. For example, they are only allowing Ford Mustang and F150 on the network first. No other non-Tesla EV's, except where Tesla installed special "magic docs" (minute percentage of Tesla superchargers - my guess as a test bed for non-Tesla charging).

 

[daveo4EV]

There is nothing stopping Tesla from trusting EA signed car authentication. Sure, EA then can pull a fast one on Tesla, but it would absolutely prevent most adapter sharing. At minimum, Tesla could just use plug-and-charge purely to identify the VIN of the car, if for nothing else than to make sure only approved models from approved manufacturers are allowed to supercharge with an adapter. Then again, once they got the VIN, they could also do the billing this way.

yeah I don't belie it's that well managed or thought out - it would be one thing if it were free - but this is a "billed" service - so honestly the only reason to restrict usage is congestion management, but since they are charging for the electrons I doubt they care to go to that much effort…

there is very very little software support for anything in this space in existing vehicles - and there is no financial motivation to shut it down…

if the charging was "free" or billed to Ford/GM behind the scenes I'd buy this - but since it's a retail rate billed to a customer - I see very little motivation to thwart "motivated" customers from charging with the Ford/GM app and an adatper…the revenue is the same…

 

[Scandinavian]

Ford has already announced Supercharger support via the Ford "blue oval" app

I would agree with you if the EV vendors had shown any aptitude for plug&charge in the past 3 years - but no - they have no plug&charge infrastructure in their vehicles and it has to work with existing vehicles that factually do not have plug&charge - also most of the vendors lack any effective OTA update capabilities, to retrofitting plug&charge support (software update, worse if it requires new hardware) will require dealer service visits - both costly and time consuming…

finally the existing plug&charge "standard" does not offer support for multiple network vendors - so _IF_ a North American EV vendor supports plug&charge they support Electrify America…not Tesla

I see your logic, but I do not believe the industry can take that path given the rudimentary support they have for charging in their vehicles and lack the effective multi-vendor plug&charge standard…

my $1 bet is app based activation for the foreseeable future - and plug&charge support possible when NACS ports start showing up native in vehicle's - but I would personally be surprised if any meaningful plug&charge support happens prior to 2027/2028

humbly disagree but open to being surprised…

if this was "normal" tech adoption curves I'd agree with you 100% - but this is the auto industry - they have a way of making things difficult.

There is a way around all of this though.
Here in Europe Fastned have introduced Plug and Charge for my 2020 Taycan. That does not rely on on Taycan Plug and Charge but rather an implementation from Fastned. Works extremely well. All I need is a Credit card linked to my Fastned account. No app, no card etc. Just plug in and start charging.

 

[whitex]

yeah I don't belie it's that well managed or thought out - it would be one thing if it were free - but this is a "billed" service - so honestly the only reason to restrict usage is congestion management, but since they are charging for the electrons I doubt they care to go to that much effort…

there is very very little software support for anything in this space in existing vehicles - and there is no financial motivation to shut it down…

if the charging was "free" or billed to Ford/GM behind the scenes I'd buy this - but since it's a retail rate billed to a customer - I see very little motivation to thwart "motivated" customers from charging with the Ford/GM app and an adatper…the revenue is the same…

Ok, if you are right and it's all about billed service, why did Tesla not just allow bring-your-own adapter, or even bring-Tesla-designed-and-manufactured adapter for all CCS1 cars? It would be so much faster - no working with legacy automakers at all.

 

[daveo4EV]

Ok, if you are right and it's all about billed service, why did Tesla not just allow bring-your-own adapter, or even bring-Tesla-designed-and-manufactured adapter for all CCS1 cars?

this has always been my position - Elon could've unilaterally "opened" the North American supercharger network and not required "vendor" participation

my guess is: Ego

given how much the industry pointed and laughed at him the past 10 years - he requires everyone to "kiss the ring"…and he wasn't going to bail them out on this front - he's making them come to him so they are forced to acknowledge they f'd up…

I have always questioned why Tesla didn't just sell an adapter and charge excess fees for non-Tesla's - no participation required by the non-Tesla vendors - as to what motivations there are internal to Tesla to not take that path - well I'm not a Tesla insider and have no "insight".

 

[whitex]

this has always been my position - Elon could've unilaterally "opened" the North American supercharger network and not required "vendor" participation

my guess is: Ego

given how much the industry pointed and laughed at him the past 10 years - he requires everyone to "kiss the ring"…and he wasn't going to bail them out on this front - he's making them come to him so they are forced to acknowledge they f'd up…

I have always questioned why Tesla didn't just sell an adapter and charge excess fees for non-Tesla's - no participation required by the non-Tesla vendors - as to what motivations there are internal to Tesla to not take that path - well I'm not a Tesla insider and have no "insight".

Elon absolutely has an ego the size of the solar system, so I subscribe to the scarlet letter "you must include NACS connector in your future models" theory too. That said, I don't think it's all ego. Keep in mind, Tesla does have a congestion problem in places - the supercharger expansion has not quite kept up with production ramp and sales to people who don't have home charging. The last thing Elon would want is a bunch of Uber Bolts taking up supercharges for hours. I think he wants control, and in order to have that control he will need some sort of identification of a charging car. I suspect he also wants to officially admit each individual model after testing, not just the entire brand, to avoid compatibility issues at best, fires at worst. He will probably also insist on totaled cars getting their supercharging revoked - he was VERY firm on that one with Teslas, and again, without plug-and-charge he cannot achieve that.

 

[daveo4EV]

Elon absolutely has an ego the size of the solar system, so I subscribe to the scarlet letter "you must include NACS connector in your future models" theory too. That said, I don't think it's all ego. Keep in mind, Tesla does have a congestion problem in places - the supercharger expansion has not quite kept up with production ramp and sales to people who don't have home charging. The last thing Elon would want is a bunch of Uber Bolts taking up supercharges for hours. I think he wants control, and in order to have that control he will need some sort of identification of a charging car. I suspect he also wants to officially admit each individual model after testing, not just the entire brand, to avoid compatibility issues at best, fires at worst. He will probably also insist on totaled cars getting their supercharging revoked - he was VERY firm on that one with Teslas, and again, without plug-and-charge he cannot achieve that.

I agree - and I also believe they want control - but I"m dubious as to how much they can achieve with in the existing CCS1 fleet…

I 100% understand your assertions and agree 100%

but I lack the specific details as to how much control Elon can exert on a 2018 Chevy Bolt and it's CCS1 vehicle software implementation

I lack the specific engineering details as to how much "meta data" one can expect from a wide range of CCS1 vehicle's to leverage into filters/restrictions/access control…

I'm taking a wait and see approach, but my "lazy tends to win" and most people don't think about this stuff too hard - is that there will be very little if any actual enforcement possible - regardless of how desirable that enforce is…and they'll just live with the congestion and use the revenues to build more sites/stalls…

I think they are simply going to embrace the growing pains rather than try and "manage it" because at the end of the day there is only so much they can do.

 

[whitex]

I agree - and I also believe they want control - but I"m dubious as to how much they can achieve with in the existing CCS1 fleet…

I 100% understand your assertions and agree 100%

but I lack the specific details as to how much control Elon can exert on a 2018 Chevy Bolt and it's CCS1 vehicle software implementation

I lack the specific engineering details as to how much "meta data" one can expect from a wide range of CCS1 vehicle's to leverage into filters/restrictions/access control…

I'm taking a wait and see approach, but my "lazy tends to win" and most people don't think about this stuff too hard - is that there will be very little if any actual enforcement possible - regardless of how desirable that enforce is…and they'll just live with the congestion and use the revenues to build more sites/stalls…

I think they are simply going to embrace the growing pains rather than try and "manage it" because at the end of the day there is only so much they can do.

I am not sure Bolts will ever get unrestricted access to Tesla superchargers, which might also be the case for Taycans without 150KW upgrade too. Notice that Tesla is only allowing F150 and Mustang from Ford, but not the Ford eTransit, at least for now.

 

[mrogerc]

EvGo supports what they call “Autocharge+,” which is plug and charge, for a number of vehicles.

https://www.evgo.com/autocharge/

The (incomplete) list of supported vehicles:

Cadillac LYRIQ
Kia Niro and EV6
Chevrolet Bolt EV and Bolt EUV
Mercedes EQS, EQB and EQE
Energica Experia, Eva Ribelle, Ego, EsseEsse9
Nissan ARIYA
Ford Mach-E and F-150 Lightning
Polestar 2
Genesis GV60, GV70 and G80 Electrified
Subaru Solterra
GMC Hummer EV
Tesla Model X, Y, S, S Plaid and 3 (with the Tesla CCS Combo 1 Adapter).
Hyundai Ioniq 5, Ioniq 6 and Kona
Toyota bZ4x
Jaguar I-PACE
Volvo C40 and XC40 Recharge.

They also support Rivian. I have used EVgo Autocharge+ on my R1T several times. It is slow to connect and start compared to using a Tesla Supercharger, but has worked on the first try every time so far.

I was a bit surprised that Teslas with CCS adapters are supported for Autocharge+ on the EVgo network. I would like to think that bodes well for non-Teslas with CCS adapters being supported for plug and charge on the Superchager network. I very much would like to think that.

 

[Jonathan S.]

I suspect that ride share Bolts will be discouraged from TSCN via the pricing.

Which reminds me, please join me in celebrating tomorrow EA Liberation Day: my Taycan free charging expires, and hence I will no longer be tempted to charge at EA for the free kWh.

Although then again, I can probably charge my CT for free with the BMW app for my wife's i4....

And speaking of dysfunctional CCS1 networks, yesterday while stopping on my way back to get groceries I finally noticed that what had always seemed to be some industrial power equipment given the lack of any public signage (review from last spring: "this weird ABB brand charger has no identifying information on it") is actually a CCS1 charger.

Does not appear on PlugShare but does show up on the ChargePoint map (despite a review of "There is no chargepoint station here. Just some weird off brand device that doesn’t let you pay"):

https://driver.chargepoint.com/stations/13577331​

Gotta love the review of "Actual kW may be less than advertised." as the max is only 24kW!
(Had a fun time though chatting with a driver there about the miserable state of CCS1 in New England.)

 

[Tooney]

(Had a fun time though chatting with a driver there about the miserable state of CCS1 in New England.)

I have the idea you are an analyst/researcher.
Any thoughts on why NE US area (outside of NYC) appears to have relative lack of good charging?

Higher electricity prices than elsewhere in US?​

Aversion to adding electric transmission lines/ NG lines?​

Land costs?​

I know lots of homes in CT still heat with oil, which seems really surprising and outdated to me.
On my roadtrips from Ohio, relatively good access to EA charging sites across 3 states until I get to CT, where DC charging becomes dicey, in terms of few and crowded sites.
Why?

Sponsored