Using iPhone as a key?

[daveo4EV]

Actually Dave you are not correct on the bmw front. Sorry I know you are quite knowledgeable but I have a 2022 x5. In order to authenticate the nfc handshake you have you phone charged but actually have to authenticate the handshake with Face ID or the phones password. No way to do this with a dead phone. If they advertise it the way you say it doesn’t work in reality.

hmmmm - this was an explcite design goal of the tech - I believe you - but the faceID authentication is not required as part of the design - it could be given current implementation - but I remember these issues being discusssed during the design phase…

again you are right - but it's not a requirement of the phone-as-key spec, and the NFC hardware on the phone is "active/alive" even when main CPU battery is offline…

is there perhaps a preference buried in the BMW app preferences to "relax" this requirement? authentication might be on by default but as a user you can decide on the lower level of security?

Sponsored

 

[daveo4EV]

Actually Dave you are not correct on the bmw front. Sorry I know you are quite knowledgeable but I have a 2022 x5. In order to authenticate the nfc handshake you have you phone charged but actually have to authenticate the handshake with Face ID or the phones password. No way to do this with a dead phone. If they advertise it the way you say it doesn’t work in reality.

https://www.zigwheels.ae/car-news/bmws-digital-key-technology

The German automaker has revealed the 2.0 version of Digital Key Technology, which is said to work if your phone is out of charge.

got lost onto the way to consumer delivery - this is something that could be fixed with the NFC/app software - having faceID/touchID/unlock-code gatekeep the NFC credentials is a security enhancement/policy, but not a requirement - it's a design decision/trade-off - they could relax this if they wanted to - but it's an additional level of security - and makes a stolen phone more secure than a FOB…since you have to be able to unlock the phone to unlock your vehicle (dead or alive) - FOB's once stolen don't have this level of security…

so the design question is - do we target FOB level security? (simple possession is sufficient) or can we do better? (possession + authentication)…

interesting to see how this plays out.

thanks for the correction - as currently implemented the BMW phone-as-key doesn't work if phone is dead - but it could if they allowed it to - but they may have made the decision to have a higher degree of security vs. just targeting FOB level of security.

again I welcome the correction - this stuff is evolving - I prefer the Tesla implementation to the BMW/apple/CCC design which requires "device presentation" - passive proximity is what people are used to and I believe sufficient - you could always provide that by default and offer a preference to up the security (proxmity + authentication) as a user preference - or even situational based on location…normally proximity only but if you're in a "new" location would you require authentication - kinda I've been here before get out of my way feature.

 

[Skilly]

Id be happy if they just added control features (like lock/unlock) in the My Porsche app for the MY2020 cars....sigh.

 

[Erez123]

More importantly, anyone found a good solution for carrying the alarm fob? I've been trying to find a little pouch to attach to my house keys, but all of the things on amazon that look like they'd do the trick turn out to be enormous. Not sure how long the fob will survive just rattling around in my trouser pocket.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flash-Port...usb+flash+drive+portable+travel,aps,71&sr=8-2

Had the same problem. This one doesn’t look amazing, but fits perfectly.

 

[tigerbalm]

got lost onto the way to consumer delivery

This is part of PassKit – but you have to mark your CarKey as a "express card" – then it can be used without FaceId or any power left on the phone.

It was originally developed with transit/metro cards in mind but CarKey hangs off that part of PassKit. I haven't had the chance to ever see it on a BMW but you might have to go into the Wallet app and mark the key as a "express card" for it to work unauthenticated.

One thing that is nice about this implementation is that its handled at the OS level and not just within an app – that tends to help with reliability, etc.

 

[tigerbalm]

The latest version "My Porsche" for iOS app is marked as supporting Wallet – the consumer interface into the PassKit set of APIs and technologies.

That's not there for no reason – but I dug through the latest binary looking for any strings relating to Car Key or PassKit and could find nothing. Apple are usually fussy about things like this – they wouldn't mark the app as using "passes" if it wasn't for some (eventual) purpose.

The CarKey supporting BMW app has the same "Supports Wallet" marking on its app store entry.

We should watch this space.

 

[daveo4EV]

Actually Dave you are not correct on the bmw front. Sorry I know you are quite knowledgeable but I have a 2022 x5. In order to authenticate the nfc handshake you have you phone charged but actually have to authenticate the handshake with Face ID or the phones password. No way to do this with a dead phone. If they advertise it the way you say it doesn’t work in reality.

can you try setting the "express pass" option and report back - I'd be curioius about two things

1. does this make it so you don't need to unlock the phone?
2. does it work when the phone is "off"

if that's the case - then I'd say we're pretty good - and it's good to have the facts.

 

[daveo4EV]

The latest version of iSO My Porsche app is marked as supporting Wallet – the consumer interface into the PassKit set of APIs and technologies.

That's not there for no reason – but I dug through the latest binary looking for any strings relating to Car Key or PassKit and could find nothing. Apple are usually fussy about things like this – they wouldn't mark the app as using "passes" if it wasn't for some (eventual) purpose.

The CarKey supporting BMW app has the same "Supports Wallet" marking on its app store entry.

We should watch this space.

deep thanks for the additional information and corrections from @tigerbalm - my goal is factual data and I welcome any additional information and corrections.

thanks @tigerbalm !!!! the two of us are unstoppable.

 

[daveo4EV]

the apple BMW "phone as key" you have to present the phone to the "vehicle" in a similar manner as when you pay at a point of sale - this is because it's based on NFC radio communication - so you are correct - it requires you to remove the phone from your pocket and present once to unlock the vehicle - and again in a spot inside the vehicle to start it…

the Apple/BMW phone-as-key will work with a dead phone for some time after the phone dies -the NFC chips on the phone have some residual power and use very little power



the Tesla "phone as key" implementation works exactly like a FOB - it's proximity based - and does not require the phone to be "presented" to the car - once it's with in blutooth range you can unlock/start the car - no interaction is required - just have your phone with you - I've found it works similar to FOB's in terms of range - this implementation requires the phone's blutooth so it requires the phone to have power…

the Tesla RFID card is considered the backup or 2nd'ary access system (like the physical key in our FOB's) and is not the primary use case, but the RFID cards are secure, thin, and light and easy to have with you as a backup…and are more secure than _ANY_ existing FOB implmentation.

the RFID cars can also be handed to someone to grant them temporary access to the vehicle (assuming they give it back) and are a physical token you can give friends, family, valets to allow vehicle access (like a fob).

I have no issue with RFID cars when they used as intended and are very very simillar to handing someone your FOB - but they are not purely proximity based and require you to "show" them to the b-pillar to unlock the vehilce, and the center console to start the key. I find this to be no big deal since it's done infrequently.

both the BMW and Tesla implmentation are way way way way more secure than existing auto FOB's designs and can not be "cloned" like thieves can with all the existing FOB's on the market, which lead to vehicle thefts.

also the BMW implementation requires no cell/internet/server service - it's a local phone to car proximity secure radio implementation

the Tesla phone as a FOB requires no cell/internet/server service - and simply requires your phone near by…

both BMW & Tesla offer RFID cards as "backup" systems should the phone approach not function - no different than the physical key option inside our FOB's.

having lived with the Tesla implementation since 2018 - it works as well as FOB's, as often as FOB's and is a real advantage in that it only requires one to have a phone with them - which you often times do (99.9% of the time) - so it's one less thing to remember or need…you have your phone, you are good to go.

this is one area Tesla has gotten right (like supercharging) they win here, they've done an excellent job, don't try and deride their implementation - it's unambiguously a "win" and everyone else is playing catch up - and it works every day and in all the same ways a FOB does - just you no longer need a FOB - you need what you're going to have with you anyways - which is your phone…

Tesla has a lot of room for improvement on in a lot of areas, but Superchargers, plug&charge, OTA updates, and phone as a key is rock solid, industry leading, resilient, and well done - leave them alone on these topics just like Porsche brakes are the best in the industry (no question).

there area few cases where Tesla's blue tooth based implementation falters and this can and has caught people out - but generally their first impulse is to launch the app to see what's wrong and that happens to reset/fix things by that simple action…

• phone is off or out of power - will not work
• phone is on but has never been unlocked - data on the phone is pretty secure after a restart until it's been unlocked "at least once" - if your phone is in this state it will not unlock your tesla
• the Tesla app is not "running" - i.e. if the Tesla app isn't "In the background" - you will have to launch it again to have it unlock the vehicle
• phone is in airplane mode so all the various radios are turned off and not receiving or transmitting
• iPhone is wonky and needs a reboot and things are not working in general
• various locations of the phone behind one's wallet or orientation problems - but I've had the same problem with various FOBs

other than the cases listed above I've found the Tesla phone-as-FOB implementation to be on-par with any keyless vehicle entry system in terms of functionality and convenience…

 

[Taycan2020]

My favourite solution is probably a utility key like land rover have, or the keypad entry like on a Ford F-150. Really nice for when you want to leave your main keys in the car and go and do an activity, especially outdoors stuff and things in the water, e.g. surfing.

 

[daveo4EV]

@RCorsa

My favourite solution is probably a utility key like land rover have, or the keypad entry like on a Ford F-150. Really nice for when you want to leave your main keys in the car and go and do an activity, especially outdoors stuff and things in the water, e.g. surfing.

phone and watch come close to this - I walk with out my phone - so having my watch work to unlock my vehicle would fit this scenario -since I'm going to have my watch on - the RIFD card also works well in this scenario - thinner and lighter than a credit card - you can have just it with you and come back and use it to gain access to the vehicle.

 

[RCorsa]

Ok so I went into the setting of the wallet for the BMW app and enabled the "express mode" which is what it is call. I can confirm you can open and start the car (assuming you place it in the correct location of the door handle and in the small cubby for the start) without using Face ID which is a plus. However, if the phone is turned off (or dead I assume) neither works (or at least not the door lock so I couldn't test the start but no reason to think it would work if the door doesn't)

I also have a Model 3 Performance and I agree the keyless phone key fob solution works much better. Of course my Taycan or my ford truck have nothing of the sort although the ford I can open the door with the key pad on the door which can be nice but seems like a few steps back.....

 

[daveo4EV]

Ok so I went into the setting of the wallet for the BMW app and enabled the "express mode" which is what it is call. I can confirm you can open and start the car (assuming you place it in the correct location of the door handle and in the small cubby for the start) without using Face ID which is a plus. However, if the phone is turned off (or dead I assume) neither works (or at least not the door lock so I couldn't test the start but no reason to think it would work if the door doesn't)

I also have a Model 3 Performance and I agree the keyless phone key fob solution works much better. Of course my Taycan or my ford truck have nothing of the sort although the ford I can open the door with the key pad on the door which can be nice but seems like a few steps back.....

thank you - this is simply awesome feedback - so we got rid of FaceID/TouchID/unlock-code - but still doesn't meet BMW's "dead phone" claim - I think that's progress and again I appreciate the factual first hand experience

thank you!!!!

 

[daveo4EV]

Ok so I went into the setting of the wallet for the BMW app and enabled the "express mode" which is what it is call. I can confirm you can open and start the car (assuming you place it in the correct location of the door handle and in the small cubby for the start) without using Face ID which is a plus. However, if the phone is turned off (or dead I assume) neither works (or at least not the door lock so I couldn't test the start but no reason to think it would work if the door doesn't)

I also have a Model 3 Performance and I agree the keyless phone key fob solution works much better. Of course my Taycan or my ford truck have nothing of the sort although the ford I can open the door with the key pad on the door which can be nice but seems like a few steps back.....

there is small chance that the phone "dying" is different than shutting down in that shutdown may throw away the cyrpto-keys until the next restart and unlock cycle - where as the phone dying due to low battery may not have the power/time/opportunity to do so - in any case I think it's not worth pursuing

but it does go against Apple/BMW's claims it works even when the phone is 'dead' - but again we may need an actual dead phone to test that claim and that is NOT what I'm asking anyone to play with.

I have enough information that I think we have an excellent survey of the current state of this type of technology - Tesla has the lead, BMW is a close 2nd, all others are way way behind.

it's also clear that both Tesla and BMW's phone-as-key/fob solutions work in a non-connectivity scenario (no cell/internet service or server outages) - so the feature set is mostly similar in nature to a FOB with some subtle differences.

 

[RCorsa]

Totally agree Tesla is king here. Not sure I’ll get a chance to have my phone battery die to test the bmw again but kind of doubt that is the case but maybe I’ll try it. I will say the biggest issue I have with the bmw “key” it having to place it on the handle to open but even worse is the tiny cubby to turn the car on. You actually have to (with an iPhone 13 pro max at least) turn the phone backwards and place it perfectly in a tiny cubby with the top of the phone facing you. Since you have to turn the phone around upside down my hands often hit and press the volume or power button which makes the phone search for Face ID to open. The nfc doesn’t work while this is happening so you have to either open the Face ID or close the Home Screen and try again to place it without touching the button. Amazingly with chip shortages this cubby doesn’t even wirelessly charge so you still need a usb cable to do this and no way to insert it with the phone backwards. Lol

Sponsored