Using iPhone as a key?

[daveo4EV]

How serious a problem is hacking of keys? I checked out the faraday pouch, and it’s not small. I’d rather not have to stick it in my pocket when I’m out and about.

hard to say - if it was really really common I'd suggest that car theft would be a more pressing problem - it's a risk in my mind rather than a concern. There are a lot of risks in the world, I try and keep my concerns to a minimum for my personal mental health.

the overall point however is that existing/historical car FOB's really are not even remotely actually truly all that secure, and they are certainly not secure against a mildly organized attack - their primary feature is convenience not security.

when I was younger the father of a friend of mine noted - honestly if someone really really wants your stuff there is really nothing you can do to thwart a focused attacked - the best and most reasonable course of action is to prevent casual opportunity theft - don't make it easy for people looking for a quick "score". If you secure the door, they go in through the window, if you secure the window, they go in through the wall, if you secure the wall they go in through the roof, if you secure the roof they go in through the sewer, if you secure the sewer they go in through the security company, if you secure the security company…

FOB's are about a secure a bike lock or high quality deadbolt on your front door.

and honestly nothing can stop a flatbed from hauling your car away…

I pay a lot of money annually for insurance against theft and other dangers for my vehicle…so that all I have in my life is risks - not concerns when it comes to my vehicles.

the FOB is still exposed when you are actually using it - so it can be cloned/hacked during those periods - a faraday pouch/box changes the exposure window from 7/24 to a few times a day…but does not remove the risk, it just drastically reduces the risk - but someone sitting and waiting in a parking lot can still grab your FOB signals while you are walking up the car while it's out of the pouch "being used"…

you can take the battery out of the FOB and just use the physical key - but that's less convenient. I think the FOB will work even with a dead battery if it's placed in the correct location in the center console to start the car - using a FOB in that manner has almost zero risk of being wirelessly relay'd or captured…but again less convenient.

proably a faraday "box" at home for the keys to "live" in - where they spend most of their time and it will avoid 12V drain since the vehicle can no longer "see" the FOB while it's in the box - and use the FOB "as" normal when out and about - and maybe keep a pouch in the car to throw the FOB into if you're going away from your normal routine…certainly while traveling a pouch would be a good idea to have with you while not "using" the vehicle (hotel rooms and tourist locations).

trade offs…

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[gnop1950]

How serious a problem is hacking of keys? I checked out the faraday pouch, and it’s not small. I’d rather not have to stick it in my pocket when I’m out and about.

It is an issue, how serious depends a lot on where you live, where you park, etc. There are some pretty small bags/pouches on Amazon. There is very little high-end car theft where I live, but I'm a bit over-cautious so I always use a Faraday box at home and a pouch when I'm traveling.

When my wife and I are traveling together I can just have her put the key fob holder in her purse, she has room to pack for an overnight trip in the purses she likes to carry

 

[daveo4EV]

so to summarize:

• Porsche does not yet have "phone-as-key/fob" as a vehicle ownership option
  • this is a bit sad, but honestly Porsche has never been "first to market" for "tech" features unrelated to driving experience.
• BMW/Others do have it - not quite FOB like but could be - stay tuned
  • it can be configured to be passive or active (express pass feature) - require or not required PIN/Face/FingerPrint
• Tesla has it but uses Blutooth - most FOB like
  • if you do not pair your phone maybe locked out of your car if internet/servers are down/unavailable - remote app level access to your vehicle
  • but you can "pair" your phone with your Tesla and it will always work as long as the phone is not dead - exactly like a FOB
  • Tesla has PIN to start feature - which probably makes the Tesla the most "secure" vehicle on the general market
• the PIN feature in your PCM PorscheID Account in the vehicle protects your "data" _NOT_ your vehicle - your data is valuable, your home address, work address, recent destinations, contacts, etc…all your data is behind this PIN (if you set it up) - so if your car is stolen at least your PorscheID based data should not be available to your car thief
  • (your seat position is worth at least $7,986 on the black market - I kidd, I kidd, we joke because we are friends!!)
  • most people (99%?) do not setup their Porsche with a PIN
  • I'd humbly suggest this won't be a useful feature until Porsche integrates some BioMetric authentication to "unlock" your Porsche Account like TouchID or FaceID in the vehicle interior to "unlock" your PorscheID account.
• FOBs never were, and mostly are not secure and never will be - they are secure "enough" but mostly for convenience not security - but are better than physical keys
• Faraday signal blockers (pouches, boxes, wallets) might be useful if there is great concern in your life over this issue
• all the implementations of phone-as-key on the market today are more secure than any existing FOB you're using - but they are not immune to certain attack vectors (signal relay being the most likely)
  • tech is on the horizon that will continue to push the security angle to greatly lower the risk…
• there is more phone-as-key technology in your future, not less, but it will take some time to work it's way through the automotive supply chain
• Top grade (near military) security is technically feasible with minimal attack vectors - but it requires a smartphone level feature setup (CPU, full-operating system, cyrpto, chip design with secure enclaves, connectivity, battery, sensors, etc) that was never going to be developed by FOB supply chain vendors - this is all coming and will be increasing over the next few years - your phone will be your key to your vehicle…it's inevitable.
• very very little can prevent your vehicle from being hauled away by a flatbed truck.
• a motivated and focused attacker will defeat any/all security measures - the best you can do is prevent the lazy and opportunity attackers by making your vehicle not the easiest target in the parking lot.

at least that's the way I see it.

 

[IrwinJ]

I just bought a small Faraday pouch on Amazon. I'll keep it in my cupholder when I'm driving, and when I reach my destination will stick my FOB in it and then in my pocket. And I guess it can act like a Faraday box to store my key when I'm home.

I know the sadness of having a car stolen. My very first new car I bought in 1977 - a Chevy Malibu. I parked it outside in my apartment complex, and the very next morning it had been stolen. They eventually recovered it, scratched up and with a HORRIBLE body odor that never could be fully removed/covered.

 

[swhsv]

Interestingly, I got a survey from Porsche last week asking my opinion on various ways to store preferences / settings (memory buttons on door vs. PCM profiles vs. associated with key fob, etc.), lock/unlock, etc. and one of the questions was (paraphrasing) “Would you prefer to be able to use your smartphone to gain entry to your car?” So I cast my “yes” vote. At least we know they’re thinking about it - but if they’re just deciding whether to do this, I’m not optimistic about what model year it would be available if they DO decide to proceed.

 

[daveo4EV]

https://www.macrumors.com/2023/05/23/mercedes-digital-car-key-e-class/

pressure builds

Mercedes is on board.

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