GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

Not sure if it was pointed out in this thread already but the timeline for GM is to first release a NACS adapter in spring of ‘24 followed by native NACS vehicles in 2025. This is different to Fords statement where their adapter isn’t expected until the start of 2025 alongside their next gen EVs.

Here’s to hoping these adapters become widespread for the rest of us sooner. It’s hard imagining Tesla having brand specific adapters if NACS adoption is their goal.

Ford says 2024 for adapter for preexisting vehicle's…same as GM.

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[daveo4EV]

Not sure if it was pointed out in this thread already but the timeline for GM is to first release a NACS adapter in spring of ‘24 followed by native NACS vehicles in 2025. This is different to Fords statement where their adapter isn’t expected until the start of 2025 alongside their next gen EVs.

Here’s to hoping these adapters become widespread for the rest of us sooner. It’s hard imagining Tesla having brand specific adapters if NACS adoption is their goal.

the Adapter "should" be mostly/entirely passive - just a physical transformation of the two plug shapes (no active electronics inside the adapter) - that is the case with the current NACS --> CCS adapter for Tesla's (Tesla's can use EA with this adapter but only newer Tesla's (2020 and later I believe))

the adapter should be 'generic' and work with any existing CCS vehicle…

the trick is how to activate the charging session at Supercharger - that's "software" controlled - so you need an "app" to do so - existing CCS vehicle's with Magic/Dock use Tesla's app, Ford and GM are integrating session activation/billing into their apps…and eventually their vehicle in car software…

Porsche's options here are:

1. Ignore this (not wise IMHO) and remain CCS only.
2. direct people to generic adapter and "hope" Tesla extends their app to any body with an adapter - again not a wise choice but possible -no effort on Porsche's part
3. adapter + session activation integrated into Porsche app
4. adapter + session activation integrated into PCM/vehicle software
5. native NACS port + vehicle supported session activation

I predict #3 for CCS vehicles will be Porsche's short/long term solution
I predict #5 for if/when they ship a vehicle with native NACS port…2027 or later?

#3 carry's the day for a long long long time…

I remind the readers that Tesla Superchargers _ALREADY_ work w/Porsche in Europe - and also work with existing Superchargers + MagicDock in North America - so the changes here are not massive - but it is a sea change

again this is like USB-C vs. older USB - all the existing stuff continues to work, but you move to the new plug-shape and new software to take advantage of the new features of the new stuff…

it is 100% feasible for Porsche to do this MY'2026 would be earliest IMHO - but they could have 2024 Adatper + Software + Access if they pushed to make it happen - but since this is Porsche I'll spot them 2025...

in any case I think with Macan EV roll out sometime in 2024 they need to have "answers" as to what their road map is by 2024 - otherwise the market will be "uncertain" - but the road map could simply say - Adapter in 2025, this is how we will activate sessions, network access along with session activation, and we'll wait and see on NACS native ports.

 

[daveo4EV]

They'll probably adapt to the market just like they're doing now. US Taycans don't have the same connectors as Europe Taycans. They'll probably come up with a half baked solution for the US market to keep selling cars. That is if NACS really takes over.

I'm still not convinced tbh. There was a reason why the EU went with CCS2 and why so much hassle with cooling cables etc. Can't be just "We want to make a big bulky plug albeit we know that an izzy tiny uncooled, passive, vacuum cleaner like, plug will do the job the same".

supercharger cables are cooled…teh connector is slim/easy - but the cables leading to the connector are massive and bulky…and liquid cooled…

 

[daveo4EV]

There's nothing that says Porsche couldn't offer a retrofit of the NACS plug on TayCan, perhaps for ~$2k.

I mean it's just the socket that needs changing, possibly a reprogram of the module that communicates through the plug for authentication etc.

they can't even retrofit their own stuff for $2k

 

[daveo4EV]

Does NACS have the physical design properties to support 800v? Eg enough insulation and spacing to prevent arcing at double the voltage? Could make it a non-starter for Porsche.

yes - no problem - can go beyond 800V…

 

[daveo4EV]

where have you got that info from?? There has never been any problems with access for Tesla cars with CCS or now for other cars to access the open for all Tesla SuC. There were no technical issues at all. Only admin. Tesla wanted to have an agreement for others to use their network, which did not happen. So whatever You think of Musk, he is a businessman. And he has stated all along that he is willing to open the Tesla SuC in principle.

Tesla has already opened the network in europe at some sites (more everyday?)

I'm simply pointing out that having the same physical plug required in Europe did not magically make all EV's work at Tesla Superchargers - as you point out Musk is a business man and only now is he allowing non-Tesla's in europe to use Tesla Superchargers - even though he plug was the same…and yes TEsla's could always use non-Tesla chargers…same as in US w/CCS adapter...

so the entire issue is 90% "admin" access - and Musk controls the access to his network…so having the same plug isn't hte issue - it's always been about access control. Ford and GM have negotiaged "access" and the whole moving to NACS well that's interesting but not the core issue…access is/was/will-always be the core issue…

• moving to NACS is a manufacturing/reliability/cost driven decision, but not required (highly desirable, cleaner, better, easier, but not strictly required)
• access needs to be negotiated
• an adapter could be the "forever" solution but requires "access" negotiated
• but North American CCS plug design sucks - needed something better
• 2 choices: NACS or Europe's plug
• Europe's plug "fixes" the CCS plug design problem, but still leaves you with an adatper problem for Supercharger's in North America…
• also keep in mind J-1772 is licensed connector design w/royalties paid to the IP holders - and expensive royalties - moving to NACS avoid these royalties for J-1772

it has always been the case that once a business agreement was in place for "access" the issue of a physical/plug or adapter would be "worked" out…but if there is no business agreement there is no plug/adapter…

even if Porsche had NACS plugs on Taycan's _TODAY_ there is no access to the Supercharger network with out Porsche & Tesla having an agreement - same as in europe - the cars already have the correct plug - but access is still limited to the supercharger network (but opening up more every day).

the issue of "software" integration is mostly a messaging/marketing problem - I don't think vendors want their customers being told by dealers to "download" the "Tesla" app - much better to keep the customer inside "your app"

it would be technically feasible for example for Porsche to do the following:

• negotiate access to the North American Supercharger network
• sell/provide an adapter
• have Tesla "handle" session activation via the Tesla's app
  • tesla would add a "add my PorscheID" button inside their app
  • download install Tesla App
  • tap the "add my prosche ID" button inside the Tesla app
• then you control session activation via the Tesla app and the PorscheID is what grants you "access" to the Superchargers'

but then you're left with Porsche telling their customers to use the Tesla's app to charge their Macan - better to "pull" the Tesla Supercharging session start/stop into the myPorsche app like Ford/GM are doing, and then eventually update the in vehicle software to support Tesla supercharger plug&charge natively - this probably best done at the same time as you add native NACS ports to the vehicle from the factory.

I'm 100% sure for example it would be possible to support to Tesla supercharger activation (plug&charger) with an adapter + vehicle software update for my 2020 Taycan, but I doubt Porsche will "pull back" that software to previous models - choosing instead to offer support via generic adapter + app-based session activation (just like I do today for EA network access - I have to use the myPorsche app to activate my EA charging sessions on my 2020 Taycan).

 

[DRR]

just I agree and prefer this - cause then I don't have to wait for Tesla to retrofit all the stations - give me a $200 adapter and I'm good to go!!!

it will be the reverse of this existing $175 adatper - this adapter let's NACS cars (Teslas) use CCS - we need the reverse - letting CCS cars use NACS fast chargers (Superchargers) - Both Ford and GM have said they will provide this adapter to existing customers…so VW/Audi/Porsche can do the same.

https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter?web=true

TeslaTap for Superchargers - $200 and we'll all be good.

How can Porsche loyalists like us convince VW/Porsche to do this? Having an adapter for my Taycan would make it perfect knowing I can take road trips without worry.

 

[daveo4EV]

How can Porsche loyalists like us convince VW/Porsche to do this? Having an adapter for my Taycan would make it perfect knowing I can take road trips without worry.

let your dealer know you care about this - we need to provide PCNA with clear and overwhelming feedback that EA sucks and we want an access to the Supercharger network like Ford/GM have negotiated and an adapter made available.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...cess-request-sample-letter.16090/#post-247201

the native NACS port is _NOT REQUIRED_ here - we simply need a few things:

• negotiated access to the entire network (like Ford/GM have for their customers)
• an adapter for our existing CCS vehicles (like Ford/GM)
• an app to start/stop sessions at Superchargers (Tesla's app or otherwise)

that is the minimum requirements and frankly would be sufficient FOREVER - anything beyond that is ego/marketing/messaging

the above 3 things are 100% functional and feasible by 2024 if PCNA cares to indulge us.

write your letters to your Sales associates, service manager, and make sure to request PCNA is informed on your message and that future EV purchases in North America supercharger access is as important as anything.

the NACS port is not required and can be 100% avoided - separate the two issues

I'm not requesting a NACS port - I don't care - I want: Access, Adapter, AppActivation (the 3 A')

we need AAA:

• Access to the Supercharger Network
• Adapter for the Supercharger Network
• Appbased Activation for the Supercharger Network

and we'll all be good.

 

[Scandinavian]

it has always been the case that once a business agreement was in place for "access" the issue of a physical/plug or adapter would be "worked" out…but if there is no business agreement there is no plug/adapter…

We are fully in agreement that it is a commercial decision. At the moment Tesla are lowering their prices in many countries while the rest of them are increasing their prices. Here in France the Tesla SuC with subscription charges 0.35 Euro/kWh while Ionity is 0.33/kWh. And the SuC normally have 4 to 6 times the number of chargers. So I think Tesla have started to challenge all the other networks in a serious way now. All the better for the EV driver. Straight forward kWh pricing, plenty of chargers per site, and most important of all extremely reliable chargers

Now if Tesla just fixed the cable length on some of their stations?

 

[daveo4EV]

we need AAA:

• Access to the Supercharger Network
• Adapter for the Supercharger Network
• Appbased Activation for the Supercharger Network

and we'll all be good.

North American Taycan's already have these 3 things at Magicdock equipped Superchargers in North America (Scott's Valley, CA for example):

• A1 - access at MagicDock supercharger sites already works - so I have the 1st "a" access
• A2 - the adapter is provided "on site" at each stall - so I have my "adapter"
• A3 - the Tesla "app" allows me to start/stop the supercharger session for control/billing

my existing 2020 Taycan works fine at Tesla Supercharger's w/MagicDock today - so there is no technical reason or change required to my existing Taycan to be 100% compatible and functional at Tesla's network

PCNA needs to negotiate the following:

1. Access to the Network
2. Adapter to sell via Porsche dealer service
3. App - which app Porsche customers will use to start/stop Supercharger session

with those 3 things we are 100% good to go - anything else is nice and I'd love it - but can come later...the 3 items listed above are all that is required to be functional. further integration can come later.

 

[daveo4EV]

We are fully in agreement that it is a commercial decision. At the moment Tesla are lowering their prices in many countries while the rest of them are increasing their prices. Here in France the Tesla SuC with subscription charges 0.35 Euro/kWh while Ionity is 0.33/kWh. And the SuC normally have 4 to 6 times the number of chargers. So I think Tesla have started to challenge all the other networks in a serious way now. All the better for the EV driver. Straight forward kWh pricing, plenty of chargers per site, and most important of all extremely reliable chargers

Now if Tesla just fixed the cable length on some of their stations?

V4 stations have longer cables…

 

[Scandinavian]

V4 stations have longer cables…

Yes and some newer stations have the charger located sideways and absolutely fine. But some are very tight.
There is hope

 

[tutis]

they can't even retrofit their own stuff for $2k

True, that's partly because Porsche operates on a 70%+ gross margin for all parts and labour.

This btw, isn't so much a problem for ancient 911s, where any mechanic worth his salt can wrench the cars, and buy OEM (previously sold at much lower margins) or similar parts from autoparts stock.

For all modern Porsches, the electronics are bound to fail eventually, and without PIWIS, or understanding of encrypted communication on the car network they'll be out of luck. The point being, that already Porsche mechanics don't "repair" anything, they replace parts that the computer told them needed replacement. By 2040, to service a 2020 911/Taycan, we won't have the option of a handyjoe mechanic anymore as they won't have access to all the computer diagnosis software, and even if they do the parts will need to come from Porsche OEM (no digital cert for the parts, ECU rejects it). So we'll all be paying the Porsche obscene gross margins to keep cars going.

I doubt that "70% of all Porsches ever built are still on the road" KPI will hold, particularly for anything built after ~2010, once these cars are 20 years+

 

[slothinker]

I think even Porsche will have to follow along here - with at least an adapter (native NACS port is not required) - but I agree until they answer it's a bit unsettling - I think the subtext here is we all know Porsche can be a bit "pig headed" and we're worried they will think they can ignore this - and we kinda know they can't - but we also know Porsche doesn't like having terms dictated to them- and this is pretty much having terms dictated to Porsche...

I think ultimately we'll get access to the network, an adapter will be made available and it will be fine - and as I've said I think NACS native port is less critical than network access w/wo adapter…

but I share your trepidation that Porsche will decide to continue to push a bad position until they are literally forced to make a change…

so if I may - i think that's your issue - that Porsche probably is going to sit on this decision for a while and let us all sweat…and we lack confidence that they "can read the room" - or that they will quickly announce anything in this space. There is some chess being played here - and I'm not sure what game Porsche want's to play or what they end game is…and we'll be brought along for the ride or have to jump ship.

if Porsche doesn't play ball here and get us access to supercharging - we'll all be kinda 2nd class citizens in the EV world, and that's not a good look for us as customers, or the brand which we all love...and yet for our Brand to "win" we are now being told we have to give Elon 'the win' - and that's just not what we do here...

I agree - it's come to this, and next moves are consequential…

Your move Porsche, but I'm not buying any more EV's in North america without access to the Supercharger network (along with others) - so yeah - what will we do if Porsche takes forever/never to settle this for us - and do I buy my 2025 Taycan refresh with out an answer to this question?

this also potentially affects the used car value of all our Taycans if not access is provided and other EV's have this access…

Ford and GM just changes the after market value of my 2020 Taycan - yeah I don't feel good about that.

yeah consequences…

Doesn't this "play ball" issue also affect VW, Audi, BMW?

 

[daveo4EV]

Doesn't this "play ball" issue also affect VW, Audi, BMW?

yes - EV's with out supercharger access in North American in the 2024/2025 time frame will be at a severe disadvantage in the new/used car markets when Ford/GM/Tesla all are shipping supercharger enabled vehicles (either via Adatper or native NACS ports + software access).

Ford/GM just made supercharger network access "table stakes" to effectively sell an EV in North America for 2024 and beyond.

CCS only vehicle's will be at a disadvantage, one significant enough that it may be unviable.

but time will tell on this.

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