GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

I've been wondering about this also - would I really miss anything not having access to the NACS fast chargers..

So here are, side by side, fresh from PlugShare and covering my neck of the woods, exhibits:

Umm. Looks like the CCS coverage is better, including planned sites? All I really care about is crossing the Cascades and having options; anywhere else is within civilization's reach and options abound.

(Note, YMWV, this is mine. But it's beginning to look like a storm in a teacup for me personally.)

there are 17 locations that are CCS, >70 kW, and have a reliably rating of >=8 from check in scores - now let's count stalls 62 CCS stalled (13 of which were offline according to plugshare when I was counting so effectively 49 stalls across 17 sites)

now supercharger "sites" same area…14 sites - 146 stalls with greater reliability…

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[daveo4EV]

plug share for the Seattle area…

filter for >70 kW, relabiltiiy rating of >=8 = 19 sites
filter for >70 kW, reliability rating of >=9 = 10 sites (50% fewer) - 27 stalls (I counted, 6 were offline according to plugshare during counting).
filter for >70 kW, reliability rating for 10 = 9 sites…

there are 21 active CCS stalls in the Seattle area where you can charge reliably based on actual usage data.

 

[daveo4EV]

(Note, YMWV, this is mine. But it's beginning to look like a storm in a teacup for me personally.)

you got me curious - so I data drilled plugshare

you have 21 "functional" CCS stalls out of that entire mess…for the entire Seattle area if you filter for >/70 kW and >=8 reliability rating - 21 stalls that will actually work when you show up.

example:
3 stalls - but only 1 functional - LOL - this is EA at it's best…
Bank of America
311 4th Ave N,
Kent, WA 98032, USA

vs. a 146 functional Supercharger stalls…almost 10x more functional stalls in the same area for CCS vs. Supercharger.

 

[daveo4EV]

for fun I just did the SF Bay Area

"raw" CCS site count - no filters - 335 "sites"
>70kW >=8 = 66 sites
>70kW >=9 = 40 sites
>70kW 10 = 25 sites

I pretty sure the stall count would "mirror" Seattle - 3 and 4 stalls per site is common

vs. 97 supercharger sites where 8-16 stalls is common

so 66 sites (>70 kW & >=8 reliability) average of 4 stalls per site = 264 CCS stalls you can actually use
vs.
97 supercharger sites average 10 stalls per site (normally more) = 970 stalls you can actually use…

 

[daveo4EV]

hmmmm…

seattle area CCS stations according to Plugshare

raw count = 133 "sites" (see picture for area survey'd)
>=70 kW = 58 sites (75 (56%) sites drop "off the list" if you want to charge faster than 50 kW - I don't know how reliability those 78 sites are- I didn't measure).
70kW and reliability rating of 1 = 51 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 2 = 47 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 3 = 45 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 4= 41 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 5 = 39 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 6 = 39 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 7 = 33 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 8 = 28 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 9 = 16 sites
70kW and reliability rating of 10 = 14 sites

here is the data graphed for sites vs reliability…you start with 133 "raw" sites - no filters…then drop to 51 sites >=70 kW - then increase reliability requirement and you end up with 14 reliable sites and fewer than 40 stalls…

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

hmmmm…

seattle area CCS stations according to Plugshare

raw count = 133 "sites" (see picture for area survey'd)
>=70 kW = 58 sites (75 (56%) sites drop "off the list" if you want to charge faster than 50 kW - I don't know how reliability those 78 sites are- I didn't measure).
70kW and reliability rating of 1 = 51 sites
...

(Oh boy, what have I done.. I've sent Dave off and down the rabbit hole of charging reliability stats for the greater Seattle area..)

 

[daveo4EV]

(Oh boy, what have I done.. I've sent Dave off and down the rabbit hole of charging reliability stats for the greater Seattle area..)

done now - LOL

I love this forum - respect is mutual I believe - @WasserGKuehlt we have to meet one day - I'm up there occassionally - daughter's university in Washington - Seattle & Walla Walla - LOL

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

I love this forum - respect is mutual I believe

Absolutely, and a tip of the hat, Sir!

we have to meet one day - I'm up there occassionally - daughter's university in Washington - Seattle & Walla Walla - LOL

I'll reach out privately. Will be in your area(ish) in late Sept for Rennsport Reunion - and EA chargers better be working!!

 

[daveo4EV]

https://stocks.apple.com/AezME4CZXSK25EclKRCKjpQ

Tesla Has Won the EV-Charger Wars

With Ford and now GM on board, Tesla seems to have all but won this one in the U.S. Its victory reflects both the higher number of chargers it offers and a more seamless and reliable charging experience. On the other side lay something of a tragedy of the commons, with nobody taking full responsibility for quality control or providing a comprehensive solution.

emphasis mine - no one took responsibility for CCS's problems…

I also believe Ford tried a little bit to take responsibility with their Charging Angel effort - and I can only believe that they were horrified by what they learned first hand from thousands of visits and diagnostics from their Charge Angel experience - but this is pure speculation on my part…

 

[blue-GT]

I think nobody denies that Tesla's supercharging network is superior overall. The physical characteristics of the connectors (CCS1 vs NACS) favor NACS. Personally, I haven't had many issues with CCS1 - wherever I've been using EA stations, *if* they were online, they worked. What really bothers me about Ford and GM jumping onboard Tesla's network is the implicit reliance on their lunatic CEO. As long as NACS isn't a consortium-defined standard, who will prevent Elon from making a change to the NACS protocol and holding everybody hostage? Am I being paranoid here? (full disclosure: in addition to our Taycan 4S, the wife drives a model 3. I can't stand the thing... for many reasons)

 

[EVmaniak]

Thank you for all your post on this subject and the WSJ link !

I am a former longtime 911s owner and got a Taycan 4S last October (traded in my amazing 2019 Carrera T) but I had so many issues with EA in the SF Bay Area since that time that I am kinda done honestly with them. They are a bunch of incompetent people who do not care about their customers, that's it.

Adding insult to injury, the Porsche agreement with EA for the free charging is indeed costing money to Porsche and the horrible EA experience is tarnishing the Porsche name at the same time. No good. Really.

I love my Taycan, I really do (I ordered a second one), but EA is making it a non viable solution when you are traveling (just try SF to LA ... its possible but it just plain sucks, really). And that full experience is even worse, when my town is putting a ridiculous building permit requirement to get a NEMA 14-50 plug installed in my garage, permit that most electricians do not want to do btw and which has a success rate of about 10% only. Yep.

And guess what ... I have a Taycan GTS coming soon ... kind of a bummer.

All of this to say that when I have heard this news from Ford and GM, I told myself it's game over for CCS in the US. That's sad but the reality, you cannot fight the future sheer number of cars with a NACS plug. It will be a steamroller, that's it.

Also, the Tesla CCS magic box for the Tesla chargers is clearly dead in the water, as there is now no incentive for Tesla to deploy that massively ... or just do the minimum deployment to get the government subsidies and that's it. It will also disappear.

I really think the US government has missed the point at the beginning and should have **imposed** one standard and only one from the start. Now we are all kind of paying the price...

BTW for current Taycan owners like us, this is clearly no a total dead end (there will be some adapters NACS/CCS - EA may improve a bit, but seriously don't expect much) but all those CCS cars will take quite a hit on their value when the NACS cars from Ford and GM will be released in volume and when they go on the used car market. Same as CHAdeMO I guess.

I may honestly call it a day and sell my Taycan and get back a 911 until all of this is sorted out.

Comments are welcome !

https://stocks.apple.com/AezME4CZXSK25EclKRCKjpQ

Tesla Has Won the EV-Charger Wars


emphasis mine - no one took responsibility for CCS's problems…

I also believe Ford tried a little bit to take responsibility with their Charging Angel effort - and I can only believe that they were horrified by what they learned first hand from thousands of visits and diagnostics from their Charge Angel experience - but this is pure speculation on my part…

 

[daveo4EV]

So in 10 years time or so I’m going to have to lug around a dongle to charge my car? We should’ve had mandated standards to begin with.

EV's weren't supposed to work, Musk was going to fail, so no one had to worry about how this was all going to work - that's why they half assed the standard and didn't care about how it actually worked beyond a few nut cases who would tolerate some rought edges…

this is not how quality products and eco-systems are done.

No one had a vested interest in this succeeding - which is why no one has stepped up to make sure CCS 1 actually works well - the industry in general still has the stench of hoping this whole thing is just a bad dream…hell our favorite vendor is all in on "eFuel" which may or may not be carbon neutral - but certainly consume's a metic-sh*t-ton of electricity to produce each gallon of "clean" fuel…NOTE: burning that fuel still produces harmful health impacting carcinogens in vast quantities - but hey it's "carbon-neutral…so we're good now aren't we?

this is what happens when people really don't have their hearts in the game…they don't make the hard choices, and they do not put the resources where they need to be to succeed.

VW/Audi/Porsche have known since at least 2020 that EA sucked…but it doesn't matter and EA is consent decreed business that only has to look like they are trying, not actually succeed…they would never let eFuel stations behave this badly or incompetently for more than a few months before sweeping changes in management…

Up until Recently Musk/Tesla was the _ONLY_ car company that only succeeded if their EV only fleet succeeded - and everyone was betting against him/them, and planning to go back to business as usual when he/they failed…proving once and for all that EV's just don't work.

now GM/Ford (and soon others) will be adopting his stuff - because guess what they sweated the details and it had to work, or he/they failed.

and that brings us to today…OMG this is painful for the established guys - who still really don't get it.

 

[mlambert890]

I may honestly call it a day and sell my Taycan and get back a 911 until all of this is sorted out.

Comments are welcome !

I totally understand the reflex here, and the frustration, but I don't see the point of this honestly. You'd take a bad value hit already, yet the car is perfectly fine right now and will be for a good long while. At some point, in theory CCS1 cars could become significantly less desirable, but only up to a point I think. There's no reason I can think of that the aftermarket wouldn't swoop in and provide an adapter, and there is no reason to think that there won't be either 1) multiple NACS providers who would offer charging via the adapter or 2) Tesla as a monopoly on NACS stations, at that point forced to.

I do think the next few years will be rocky, and it certainly now suddenly sucks being in the "CCS1 only" camp, but that's a camp that every non-Tesla owner in NA to date is in, so there will be some kind of solution. Plus, ICE hardly has some rosy future ahead (which is the point of all of this right?)

 

[snstevens]

I've been wondering about this also - would I really miss anything not having access to the NACS fast chargers..

So here are, side by side, fresh from PlugShare and covering my neck of the woods, exhibits:
A - Tesla fast:

and B - all fast:

Umm. Looks like the CCS coverage is better, including planned sites? All I really care about is crossing the Cascades and having options; anywhere else is within civilization's reach and options abound.

(Note, YMWV, this is mine. But it's beginning to look like a storm in a teacup for me personally.)

Just give me a few more fast chargers, one in Concrete or Marblemount, one in Winthrop, one in Chelan, and one in Skykomish, and I would really enjoy my time on the Cascade Loop. As it is today, I have to plan very carefully and sometimes use a L2 charger (pain in the ass).

 

[AndiL]

even if Porsche had NACS plugs on Taycan's _TODAY_ there is no access to the Supercharger network with out Porsche & Tesla having an agreement - same as in europe - the cars already have the correct plug - but access is still limited to the supercharger network (but opening up more every day).

No EV manufacturer in Europe has or needs a contract with Tesla for their customers to be able charging at Tesla Superchargers in Europe.

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