Turbo vs Turbo S

[WuffvonTrips]

my Taycan @ laguna seca w/PCCB's

• laps 6 and above Taycan's battery is overheated (132F) and Porsche's battery management software has reduced maximum throttle power to lower maximum discharge rates on the battery reducing discharge induced thermal heating
• brakes were never "taxed" or overheated - and you've run out of:
  • battery thermal capacity
  • battery kwh's capacity

Good point. From experience of Turbo and Turbo S elsewhere (Silverstone International CIrcuit), the car's thermal management only allowed full power for stints of around 10 miles (and a full charge theoretically would have enabled a range of around 35 miles had it been possible to sustain the power output).

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[Genau]

Off topic:
Just got my set Vossen 22 inch HF5 in, to be installed next week, along with yellow wheelcaps....this to me is already worth the CC brake setup, even if it would be for the looks only.

Haha I like how you arranged that photo to capture the yellow pallet jack in the background, simulating the color combo you'll see when the wheels are mounted over your yellow PCCB calipers!

 

[Rik_CT4s]

Haha I like how you arranged that photo to capture the yellow pallet jack in the background, simulating the color combo you'll see when the wheels are mounted over your yellow PCCB calipers!

I think it will look sooooo awesome...at least for me it does the trick. Coming thursday will let them mount...let's see how it will look in real.

 

[Archimedes]

Me too. I assume that, once ABS intervenes, the limiting factor is the tyres rather than the brakes.
EDIT- what I'm trying to say is- more generally, deceleration is limited by tyre grip rather than braking force, assuming a minimum adequate level of braking capability.

This. It’s not about overall stopping power. It’s about feel and the lack of fade. PCCBs offer better feel and control at speed IMO, and they don’t fade like the iron setup. On a Taycan with mostly regen, this is pretty much irrelevant. My advice is, get the pretty one, whichever you feel that is. I went with PSCB because I don’t like small rotors (the irons look tiny on this car) and I despise brake dust.

 

[daveo4EV]

purchasing PCCB's as a cosmetic choice is 100% approved and endorsed - they do in fact look awesome! on this topic I 100% agree.

anyone optioning PCCB's with this reason in mind is making a fully informed well researched choice.

 

[daveo4EV]

all Porsche Brakes on ALL cars must pass porsche's minimum braking standard - documented in this article…

https://thebrakereport.com/why-pors...vated, thanks to the car’s regen capabilities.

A spokesperson told me that every Porsche is required to pass a braking torture test: 25 stops in a row, from 80 percent of a car’s top speed down to 90 km/h (56 mph), with every fifth stop involving full ABS. For a car to pass, it has to generate between 0.8 and 0.9 g of deceleration every time.

think about this for a moment - _ALL_ porsche brakes (cast-iron, PCSB's, and PCCB's) MUST pass this test - 80% of top speed with threshold braking done 25 times in a row with no cooling period with _NO_ brake fade…

all of Porsche's brakes pass that test regardless of rotor composition.

comparing braking effectiveness without normalizing tires is pointless - as far as braking power is concerned PCCB's vs. other brakes should have virtually no differences - because tires the the overwhelming factor in braking deceleration rates and ultimately distance - with ABS intervention normalizing the performance (i.e. you can't stop faster than ABS lets you because it will release the brakes when the tire at maximum grip level to reduce lock up)…

with the Taycan in particular any perception of braking improvement of cast-iron-base, PCSB, or PCCB is likely confirmation bias and not actual performance differences - the physics of the situation dictate that… (regen and blended braking means the "peddle" feel is very likely a software induced illusion)

tire grip is _ALL_ the matters for stopping power & distance

to test brakes and actuall find a difference you need:

• deceleration measurements
• distance measurements
• identical tires (size & compound)
• identical wheels
• road surface temps
• ambient temps
• brake temps
• pad wear
• consistent speed
• pedal pressure applied
• and in case of Taycan battery SOC and regen status (sometimes Taycan will or will not invoke regen depending on circumstances)
• brake fluid age/brand/rating

if you normalize all the factors above there is no difference in braking performance for a single trial

you may see differences between trials if you do not cool the brakes between trials - a significantly large number of trials with limited/no cooling between trials PCCB's _WILL_ be the superior brakes due to their excellent thermal capacity/endurance.

peddle feel is also subjective and not mechanically influenced on Taycan and largely a simulation - it has to be that way because of blended braking - pedal feel on Taycan is mostly a synthetic affair/illusion provided by Prosche's excellent software modulating pedal resistance and "feel" - the computer controlls actual regen & hydraulic pressures and your pedal input (and the resistance you feel) is purely a user interface _NOT_ an actual pressure actuator…

if you're happy with your PCCB's great - I love mine on my Turbo…but will not order these cosmetic accessories again…

any perception of "better" braking with out normalizing the factors listed above is purely confirmation bias … outside of brake fade conditions which can happen in extreme endurance applications with cast-iron/PCSB's…

no manufacturer of PCCB's claims in writing that PCCB's offer improved stopping distances

they simply claim PCCB's are "better/best" - which is true, but they do not quantify in what aspect they are 'better/best' - I know of 5 areas in which PCCB's are "better/best"

1. thermal endurance (unnecessary in _ANY_ street driving circumstance and only need after 25 min. of full pace track driving)
2. weight - unsprung rotational mass is a huge win for handling and "feel" - although inconsequential on a 5,100 lbs 4 door sports sedan
3. appearance (but I believe this to be a conditioned response)
4. brake dust
5. superior resistance to rust and harsh winter road conditions in terms of rotor surface wear/tear due to salts

on track in heavy braking my 2020 Taycan Turbo achieves 1.1 maximum g's in forward deceleration coming into turn 2 off the front straight - this single factor _IS_ braking distance/time/power/effectiveness - it has nothing to do with the composition of the brake rotors/pads - it has everything to do with the the tire sizes and compound and is entirely dominant in how fast and how long it takes to bring the 5,100 lbs Taycan down to corner entry speed…repeated attempts at this corner will heat the brakes and in a 1:4x lap time it takes about 24 laps in my GT3 to induce brake fade into Porsche's excellent cast-iron steel rotors in my 2018 911 GT3…after 25 laps or so you begin to have brake fade with cast-iron brakes but no fade with PCCB's.

if I switch my 2018 911 GT3 to hoosiers or slicks (greater tire grip levels) my maximum deceleration g's jump from about 1.2 g's to 1.8g's - and consequently stop time/distance drops like a rock - same brakes, different tires make a HUGE difference -in fact the only difference…

my Taycan @ laguna seca w/PCCB's

• laps 1-3 braking distance and maximum g's are about 0.9 - 1.1 g's forward deceleration rates
• laps 3-5 braking distance enlongates maximum g's rarely achieve greater than 0.9 g's - often times (0.8) - street tires are now Overheated on a 5,100 lbs and subsequently the the maximum grip levels are dropping off and braking distance is degraded
  • same brakes - but car's braking power is "reduced" because tires now suck
• laps 6 and above Taycan's battery is overheated (132F) and Porsche's battery management software has reduced maximum throttle power to lower maximum discharge rates on the battery reducing discharge induced thermal heating
  • subsequently tops spees are reduced (less acceration)
  • less braking is required from lower top speeds
  • normally battery power is down to 50% from previous 6+ laps of full pace driving
• Taycan needs to be brought in for about 30 minute rest to get battery thermals back to normal - but going back out again is dicy because you're below 50% battery SOC and there is no fast charging at the track…
• brakes were never "taxed" or overheated - and you've run out of:
  • battery thermal capacity
  • battery kwh's capacity
  • and your street tires have overheated trying to track a 5,100 lbs sedand with instant torque and 500 or more AWD horse power
    • it's hoot until it all reaches capacities

there is no braking performance difference between various brakes Porsche sells if you equalize all the factors

normally PCCB equipped vehicles come with better and more grippy performance tires…which WILL improve braking performance by quite a bit.

simply chaging from 255mm fronts to 275mm fronts and 365mm rears from 355mm rears on my GT3 DRAMATICALLY improved braking performance (more rubber on the track surface equals better braking performance)

the g meter in your Taycan will demonstrate your maximum braking performance in terms of forward maximum g's - change your tires you'll change this number and your braking performance will be affected…change your brakes but keep the tires the same - there will be no statistically signficiant difference in maximum g's or deceleration rate - there can't be.

 

[jkoya]

I snapped this photo from a Porsche Taycan presenation last week in anticipation of this frequent topic - it documents how regen behaves in the various settings for Taycan - this porsche factory information and therefore not subject to debate

Was this pic taken at the Taycan workshop Porsche of Stevens Creek had on the last friday of October ? If so, how was it ? That was the dealership I bought the Cross Turismo from and they sent me an invite, but I couldn't make it. Maybe they will have another one in the future.....
Thank you for your post !

 

[daveo4EV]

Was this pic taken at the Taycan workshop Porsche of Stevens Creek had on the last friday of October ? If so, how was it ? That was the dealership I bought the Cross Turismo from and they sent me an invite, but I couldn't make it. Maybe they will have another one in the future.....
Thank you for your post !

yes that was it! i found it to be a bit too much fluff and marketing vs information

they said the PMCC is a great deal because it’s $1120 cost included the 25ft charging cord that porsche charges $1500 for cord if you want it with the PMC+ - i just about lost it right there!

their slides listed the Taycan's charge rate as maximum 9.6 kw - I attempt to fix this post presentation - the presenter could not wrap his head around 11 kW max on board charger and 9.6 kW max charge rate for a mobile EVSE. We discussed the Porsche wall Charger (and how it would charge the Taycan at it's full 11 kW), but he asserted/insisted that the Porsche Wall Charger _REQUIRED_ the 19.2 kW option - and was certain that no other EVSE could charge the vehicle other than Porsche EVSE's. He was confused when I pointed out that public L2 chargers work just fine, and that the PMC+/PMCC are nothing special. He felt I had incorrect information that it would void the warranty if I used non-porsche EVSE's -

there were other minor Porsche-favorable rose colored glasses misinformation and a lot of nearly-wrong EV misinformation - but not quite over the line wrong. -

One pedal driving is "unsafe" and that's why Porsche will not support it -

overall I was _NOT_ impressed with the presentation - but there were a lot of first time EV owners in the audience and I shudder to think of the messages they left with - just so bad.

Porsche does not take EV's seriously and it shows

 

[bluesky]

purchasing PCCB's as a cosmetic choice is 100% approved and endorsed - they do in fact look awesome! on this topic I 100% agree.

anyone optioning PCCB's with this reason in mind is making a fully informed well researched choice.

I’m confused by some of the posts here that imply that PCCB’s can be optioned. I’ve gone through the US configurator, and it seems like generally you can’t option them. Basically, depending on the model, you get what you get It seems. So to get PCCB’s, you have to by the Turbo S. It isn’t even an option on the Turbo. And I think that’s ultimately why there’s this big brake topic in this “Turbo vs. Turbo S” thread, because you can only get PCCB on the Turbo S.

Did I miss something? Are PCCB’s available off-menu, and thus there isn’t a hard connection between Turbo S and PCCB’s?

 

[bn8959]

Used to be. I really wanted them on my GTS (yes - for cosmetic reasons mostly!). In March this year it was configurable. But it disappeared in April and became only available on the TS - so I went PSCB.

 

[daveo4EV]

I’m confused by some of the posts here that imply that PCCB’s can be optioned. I’ve gone through the US configurator, and it seems like generally you can’t option them. Basically, depending on the model, you get what you get It seems. So to get PCCB’s, you have to by the Turbo S. It isn’t even an option on the Turbo. And I think that’s ultimately why there’s this big brake topic in this “Turbo vs. Turbo S” thread, because you can only get PCCB on the Turbo S.

Did I miss something? Are PCCB’s available off-menu, and thus there isn’t a hard connection between Turbo S and PCCB’s?

I own a Turbo 2020 - and PCCB's were an option for the vehicle when I ordered it.

 

[daveo4EV]

Used to be. I really wanted them on my GTS (yes - for cosmetic reasons mostly!). In March this year it was configurable. But it disappeared in April and became only available on the TS - so I went PSCB.

you are correct the current North America configurator does not offer PCCB's as an option - that is a change in build options - it may be permanent or simply reflect current supply chain realities - Porsche occasionally removed options from the configurator if they know there are not enough to satisfy demand - that means sometimes to get a particular option you must upgrade to a trim level where the option you want is standard equipment…

what is or is not an option is a fluid thing that changes with supply chain realities, porsche marketing changes, and trim levels…

I also believe it could reflect Porsche's internal thinking and realities of PCCB's on an EV with a 90% regen and could be a tacit admission as to their cosmetic benefits and perceived top of the line status, but not really of any benefit in in actual use…only porsche internally knows why this option was removed.

 

[bn8959]

Yeah, my SA said the same. He said things would disappear if there were expected supply issues. I was willing them to come back before my lock date, but unfortunately they didn’t, and still haven’t - so maybe MY24 has a new strategy of them only being available on the TS - tempting people to upgrade to the top tier!

 

[daveo4EV]

the PCCB's were always a "deal" for Taycan - much cheaper option than other vehicles in the line up - Taycan PCCB's were always the cheapest in the entire porsche line only $6500 vs $8/$9k for other vehicle's - I always felt that was a reflection and tacit admissions by Porsche that PCCB's were kinda pointless on an EV…Taycan's PCCB's are some of the biggest brake kits Porsche - materials cost alone should justify equal or greater options cost, but no - they were a cheaper option on my 2020 Taycan than the PCCB's were on my 2018 911 GT3…

I simply view this as more proof that it's nothing do with functionality but rather pure margin $$$ for Porsche and they simply price it in terms of what they think the market will bear…which is why they are one of the most profitable vehicle manufacturers in the world.

 

[bluesky]

I’ve noticed this in a few threads on this board, that some argue points that don’t match with currently available configurations.

I would like to caution people that the realities of Taycan optioning changes, and that it may not be helping a person asking for current purchasing advice to assume that standard equipment and option choices are the same as when you ordered perhaps several years prior. I am also in the researching phase while waiting for an allocation, so I tend to cross check optioning assertions that are stated.

For example, the electric steering column adjustment is now available on GTS and up models. I think this was temporarily unavailable below Turbo trim level for a while. Burmester and Bose is available across the entire Taycan range now, where a year or so ago, Burmester and (maybe Bose in some cases) was pulled as an option for many trim levels. Both were due to supply chain problems on getting the electronics. I believe the column issue was ultimately that the control unit was based around a microcontroller that was essentially out of stock. A problem familiar to me.

It does seem like things are better for MY24 and my subjective feeling is that the configurator setup is based more on Porsche’s tier’ing things than on parts availability.

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