Summer tyres (tires) in Winter

[AGDunc]

Hi All,

I have seen a number of posts on the validity of fitting winter tyres, but I have a question with a bit of a twist on that ...

I have a leased GTS that arrived from factory with Pirelli P0 Summer tyres. My lease agreement covers replacement tyres (which is fortunate as I just had the rears replaced gratis after I picked up a screw from the road in the rear left, saving me ~£500). The problem is that the lease company are telling me that the lease agreement doesn't cover fitting winter tyres so I will have to pay if I want to fit them now that its getting cold in the UK. I can see their logic in normal circumstances, as most people will be moving from all season tyres. However, from the reading I've done summer tyres really start to let go below 7 degrees Celsius, especially in the wet, so this makes them pretty unsuitable for winter driving in the UK.

I raised this point with the lease company and told them I wanted something from them in writing to tell me they were happy with me driving the car in winter at low temperatures. They weren't keen to do that (surprise surprise) and instead referred me to their tyre partner, Kwikfit. They weren't any happier so they referred me to Porsche, and Porsche have now referred me to Pirelli ??‍

I can't find anything from Pirelli (and I'm not inclined to go chasing), but Continental say this on using summer tyres in Winter:

"Summer tyres are not built for cold weather. The tyre tread will stiffen. In addition to reducing traction, this poses a risk to the tyre itself.​

​

The tyre loses its elasticity and may crack. There's a risk of chipping of the overly stiff tread block. Chipped and cracked tyres are not safe to drive on and must be replaced.​

​

Driving with summer tyres in the winter can be considered improper use, and the warranty will usually not cover resulting damage."​

I am going to my Porsche dealer at the end of this week so I intend to talk to them about this then before I go back to the lease company. I still intend on telling the lease company to either endorse the use of the summer tyres or pay for suitable tyres to be fitted (which would likely be all season tyres, so that's what I'm going to ask Porsche about).

However, I thought it was worth asking on here whether other people with Summer tyres have had any issues with insurance companies etc. if they chose to continue running Summer tyres in winter. I know its not illegal, but driving a 500bhp car that weighs nearly 2.5 tons on tyres that apparently shouldn't be used below 7 degrees C seems like a admin nightmare if something goes wrong ... and that's before considering the potential safety issues.

Any thoughts would be very welcome.

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[f1eng]

Cars in the UK are generally supplied on summer tyres and so all the cars you have ever driven in winter almost certainly had tread which hardened when cold and probably hadn’t given it a second thought since winter tyres aren’t a “thing” here.
I learned the difference when I was in my early 40s working in France where many people use them, and was shocked how much better winter tyres were.
I later found in many countries it is illegal to drive without winter tyres at some times of year.

Here most people don’t bother and the first bit of snow causes people to get stuck in conditions that would be fine on winter tyres but there has been no publicity of the reason - we Brits seem to be blind to the need.

I have been fitting winter tyres to our cars when the temperature drops for over 20 years but it isn’t common here in the UK.

All seasons may be better than either winters or summers for a UK winter but nobody offers them on new cars AFAIK and Porsche only offer winter tyres, I bought these:-

https://content.eu.porsche.com/prod...r=EB8780AAC4762604C1258454003F1F81&ac=product

because they aren’t black.

Basically if you have been content to drive your other cars in winter on the supplied tyres the Taycan will be no different.
OTOH winter tyres are much better but I would expect you’d get a facepalm from a dealer if you expect them to be included free, purchase or lease.

 

[DavidG]

I’ve been driving for 40 years and never had winter tyres before, however having just fitted them on my GTS, I certainly realise I should have got them on my 4S last winter and other cars before that, it’s a much more pleasant drive and no tyre scrubbing / juddering when turning sharply.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

Bit of a long and indirect answer, based on my recent foray in to the subject of winter tyres- note the last 2 statements that are in bold-

Reasons to be less concerned:
I doubt that Porsche dealers swap to winters for their demonstrators and loaners;
I'd also be surprised if Silverstone Experience Centre swap tyres, and I guess they continue operations throughout winter though IIRC they do occasionally cancel if unusually bad weather.
I only realised last week that GB isn't the only EU country that doesn't mandate winters- e.g. France;
The tyre industry (producers and shops) are pushing to grow their sales.

BUT that said, for the first time in my 40+ years of motoring, I've decided to switch for winter, not so much for safety reasons but more to not waste the car's performance. I was planning on getting All Seasons as the better solution to likely conditions than full Winters, but Porsche-approved AS tyres are difficult to source in the UK (I don't think they are officially available), so I'm having Winters fitted this coming weekend. I had hoped to get tyres without wheels (intending to fit them on my current wheels), but again was frustrated trying to get a matching set of Porsche-approved tyres, so I took the easier/much more expensive option of ordering Tequipment wheel&tyre set. I am concerned though that should anyone need to replace one of these tyres, it could take weeks or even months to get one.

The challenge with tyres for Taycans is that Porsche require that we only use NF0 rated tyres (meaning that they have been tested and approved by Porsche), which means just a couple of options for each type of tyre, and potential availability issues between batches being manufactured for AS or Winter types. Just as significantly, some insurance companies stipulate that manufacturer's approved tyres must be fitted- even though they don't have to be suitable for the current season!

By the way, and as mentioned by @f1eng, I think that Summers are the most common tyre supplied with new cars in the GB market, though maybe the more utilitarian Summers degrade less in cold weather than higher performance ones.

 

[Scandinavian]

I only realised last week that GB isn't the only EU country that doesn't mandate winters- e.g. France;

You are correct that winter tyres are not mandatory all over France. There are only a few countries were this applies as a blanket law. Others have it formulated so that it is required if the road conditions warrant the use of winter tyres, which is even more tricky.

Winter tyres or equivalent are mandatory in certain parts the more alpine areas in France.

Since November 1st, 2021, new rules for winter gear have applied in France.

In areas determined by two new road signs, winter tyres or equivalent equipment will be mandatory from November 1 to March 31.

Good to know: This rule apply in certain cities, located in 34 “départements” (Ain (01), Allier (03), Alpes-de-Haute-Provence (04), Hautes-Alpes (05), Alpes-Maritimes (06), Ardèche (07), Ariège (09), Aude (11), Aveyron (12), Cantal (15), Doubs (25), Drôme (26), Haute-Garonne (31), Isère (38), Jura (39), Loire (42), Haute-Loire (43), Lozère (48), Moselle (57), Puy-de-Dôme (63), Pyrénées-Atlantiques (64), Hautes-Pyrénées (65), Pyrénées-Orientales (66), Bas-Rhin (67), Haut-Rhin (68), Rhône (69), Haute-Saône (70), Savoie (73), Haute-Savoie (74), Tarn (81), Var (83), Vaucluse (84), Vosges (88) et Territoire de Belfort (90)).
Motorists have to check the websites (in French) of the “préfectures” (local administration) or of the road safety before driving in these territories.

Alpes Maritimes in the south east is tricky. Along the coast around St Tropez to Monaco it is seldom needed. But go a bit north and you are up in the south French alps.

And yes it is a bit limited on the NF0 tyres at the moment. But at least on the continent it has not been any shortage or difficulties in buying such. So even if you should happen to damage on of the tyres it is not necessary difficult to get a new one.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

And yes it is a bit limited on the NF0 tyres at the moment. But at least on the continent it has not been any shortage or difficulties in buying such. So even if you should happen to damage on of the tyres it is not necessary difficult to get a new one.

That's good to know that I could import my own if necessary. I'm just disappointed that I might have to resort to that. I also wish I could have been adventurous enough to instead import a full set of All Seasons so I could have stuck with my original plan to fit them on my current wheels, but I was put off at the thought of getting an incorrect or incomplete delivery.

Thanks for the details re. French law too.

 

[mutanthands]

The challenge with tyres for Taycans is that Porsche require that we only use NF0 rated tyres

Yep, it's incredibly frustrating. 20" fair a little better with options, but with 21" it's only summer tyres.
The other problem is that if you don't use NF0 tyres and Porsche trace any issue back to the tyres, you won't be covered by the warranty.

 

[Scandinavian]

Yep, it's incredibly frustrating. 20" fair a little better with options, but with 21" it's only summer tyres.
The other problem is that if you don't use NF0 tyres and Porsche trace any issue back to the tyres, you won't be covered by the warranty.

This has been stated so many times and seems accepted.

But does it really hold up? I mean if you have a reputable brand like Michelin, Nokias, Continental or Hankook non NF0 winter tyre with the correct weight and speed ratings installed. I have never heard about anybody experiencing any problems in Scandinavia with this from other manufacturers.

 

[mutanthands]

This has been stated so many times and seems accepted.

But does it really hold up? I mean if you have a reputable brand like Michelin, Nokias, Continental or Hankook non NF0 winter tyre with the correct weight and speed ratings installed. I have never heard about anybody experiencing any problems in Scandinavia with this from other manufacturers.

This was told to me directly from Porsche.
I agree, if you use a reputable brand with correct ratings it shouldn't make a difference, but personally I wouldn't want to risk my warranty.

 

[AGDunc]

By the way, and as mentioned by @f1eng, I think that Summers are the most common tyre supplied with new cars in the GB market, though maybe the more utilitarian Summers degrade less in cold weather than higher performance ones.

Thanks for the reply. When you say most GB market cars are supplied with winter tyres I assume you are mainly referring to Porsches, or other more performance focused brands? I would imagine most 'normal' cars are supplied with All Season tyres, like our other car, a lowly Fiesta.

My issue was that I wasn't sure if the car was as safe as it should be being driven on Summer Tyres when it is supposedly too cold for them. However, my issue now is that having asked that question of my lease company, Kwikfit and Porsche, nobody will give me a straight answer.

I expect the real answer is that it is 'safer' to fit Winter Tyres, but nobody will commit to saying Summer Tyres are either safe or unsafe to use in Winter. What I do know is that from the brake testing I've done in my car since the temperatures have dropped, the car really struggles for any good traction in an emergency situation and that it would likely take 2-3 additional car lengths to come to a complete stop, if not more. I can drive with that expectation in mind if I have to, but I want to the lease company to tell me they are happy with me driving their £125k car around on cold roads on that basis. I expect they may still struggle to do that however.

Maybe I'm being unreasonable?

 

[Dabz]

My take on it is that only people who can realistically afford winter tyres/wheels (of which you find a lot on Porsche owners forums) think about winter tyres. The reason 99% of the general public don't bother is that the risk vs cost analysis probably doesn't stack up. Though 99% of people aren' driving 400+ BHP cars.

My approach to it (first winter with my Porsche) is that I'd rather take things steady in the extreme cold. I do a lot less miles over winter anyway. Add to that, it's been extremely mild so far this winter and likely to continue to be so here in the UK

 

[WuffvonTrips]

Thanks for the reply. When you say most GB market cars are supplied with winter tyres I assume you are mainly referring to Porsches, or other more performance focused brands? I would imagine most 'normal' cars are supplied with All Season tyres, like our other car, a lowly Fiesta.

No, I meant all cars of every brand sold new in the UK. I've never previously looked in to season ratings on tyres, but my assumption is that All Seasons, like Winters, are specialist tyres that very few new cars will have as standard spec in the UK. So I'd expect non-performance cars to still usually be delivered with Summers, though they're probably more tolerant of cold conditions than are Summer tyres that have been designed and formulated for high performance cars.
They way I think of it (which might be incorrect, given the topic is something I've avoided till recently), is that a Summer Tyres is defined as lacking any of the symbols (M, S, Peak, Snowflake) that distinguish Winters or All Seasons.

I expect the real answer is that it is 'safer' to fit Winter Tyres, but nobody will commit to saying Summer Tyres are either safe or unsafe to use in Winter.

Agreed. I don't think any (undamaged/within wear limits) tyre should be considered to be absolutely safe or unsafe, but it seems reasonable to say that Winters (or All Seasons) are safer than Summers in certain conditions. But then there are the related factors of driving behaviour X is safer than driving behaviour Y, and vehicle model X is safer than vehicle model Y. Sorry if this sounds evasive or pompous- just me typing out loud
Just to elaborate on my personal take (upthread)- I'm switching to Winters to maximise usable performance, I don't think that Summer tyres are dangerous in winter if one adapts driving to prevailing conditions, or in an extreme case, don't drive.
EDIT- another thought- I think the Taycan is an easy car to drive smoothly, and it packs a lot of clever traction control (especially with AWD), so is relatively safe. On the other hand, it's a heavyweight which isn't a good thing on low friction surfaces, especially slopes.

 

[Poshfpg]

Bit of a long and indirect answer, based on my recent foray in to the subject of winter tyres- note the last 2 statements that are in bold-

Reasons to be less concerned:
I doubt that Porsche dealers swap to winters for their demonstrators and loaners;
I'd also be surprised if Silverstone Experience Centre swap tyres, and I guess they continue operations throughout winter though IIRC they do occasionally cancel if unusually bad weather.
I only realised last week that GB isn't the only EU country that doesn't mandate winters- e.g. France;
The tyre industry (producers and shops) are pushing to grow their sales.

BUT that said, for the first time in my 40+ years of motoring, I've decided to switch for winter, not so much for safety reasons but more to not waste the car's performance. I was planning on getting All Seasons as the better solution to likely conditions than full Winters, but Porsche-approved AS tyres are difficult to source in the UK (I don't think they are officially available), so I'm having Winters fitted this coming weekend. I had hoped to get tyres without wheels (intending to fit them on my current wheels), but again was frustrated trying to get a matching set of Porsche-approved tyres, so I took the easier/much more expensive option of ordering Tequipment wheel&tyre set. I am concerned though that should anyone need to replace one of these tyres, it could take weeks or even months to get one.

The challenge with tyres for Taycans is that Porsche require that we only use NF0 rated tyres (meaning that they have been tested and approved by Porsche), which means just a couple of options for each type of tyre, and potential availability issues between batches being manufactured for AS or Winter types. Just as significantly, some insurance companies stipulate that manufacturer's approved tyres must be fitted- even though they don't have to be suitable for the current season!

By the way, and as mentioned by @f1eng, I think that Summers are the most common tyre supplied with new cars in the GB market, though maybe the more utilitarian Summers degrade less in cold weather than higher performance ones.

Just FYI I got a puncture in my winter tyre, same wheels as Frank's, Pirelli P Xero Winter Elect a week after getting them swapped on in early November. I was in central London on a Wednesday and pumped it up with the machine before heading home, it started dropping almost immediately so I rang West London on the way home and while they didn't have one in stock they ordered it 'from the warehouse' immediately and had it by Friday.

My wife's ID3 had a flat too, Bridgestone Winter, but I had to order that and it took 7 working days to arrive even though ordered through a UK Company. It was still coming from Germany and while in the UK by 4am the morning after I had ordered it the previous afternoon it wasn't released from a customs check for a week. Going back a few years I'd have had it within 24 hours of ordering. That is your main issue not availability per se. Order the same tyre to Ireland or France and you would have it next day.

If similar happened again I might get one sent to a collection point in Calais and drive over to get it but it seems Porsche do carry stock in the UK.

Irrespective of any hassle having lived in Switzerland many years ago I always fit Winters November-April to all our cars in the UK the difference is enormous. It's not just snow, it's heavy rain, grip in the cold and so on. they inspire confidence.

 

[Murph7355]

Ha e been debating getting a second set of wheels for winter tyres. Had a spare set for my RS4 so know they work well.

Current temps here (9degC this morning) would see winters compromised though.

It's also a pita finding N rated winter tyres in 21" (ideally would get another set of RS wheels). There's a German supplier that has some with Michelin Alpins on, which seem to be N rated. But not cheap.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[WuffvonTrips]

Just FYI I got a puncture in my winter tyre, same wheels as Frank's, Pirelli P Xero Winter Elect a week after getting them swapped on in early November. I was in central London on a Wednesday and pumped it up with the machine before heading home, it started dropping almost immediately so I rang West London on the way home and while they didn't have one in stock they ordered it 'from the warehouse' immediately and had it by Friday.

That's a swift resolution. I've just checked mytyres.co.uk- a German company with a UK web portal, so presumably with access to European stock- and they're currently showing those fronts "In Stock" and rears "Limited Stock" (my previous searches never managed to turn up a supplier who had both in stock).

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