VW Group (Porsche, Audi, Scout) Commits to NACS

[hifi239]

My understanding is that Tesla has started rolling out V4 superchargers which are 800v to charge the Cybertruck. There is at least one station now in Oregon. Those should fast charge the Taycan. So
Taycan w/o 400V option = 50kW at Tesla V3,
Taycan w 400V option = 150kW at V3,
any Taycan at Tesla V4, as fast as the car permits.

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[DerekS]

Am I correct in saying three things have to happen for us to be able to charge at a Tesla supercharger. 1) We need to get a physical adapter, 2) Porsche must modify the software in our cars to "talk" to the Tesla superchargers, at least for billing, and 3) Tesla must allow Porsches to charge at their stations.

1. Physical adapter - maybe. Tesla is already rolling out magic dock superchargers with an adapter built in.

2. Porsche software talking to Tesla -no. Right now at magic dock Superchargers, you initiate the charge using the Tesla app. That could happen as soon as Tesla wants it to.

3. Tesla permission - yes. Which they seem pretty happy to give, based on the magic docks.

 

[daveo4EV]

I agree about the reliability, but I can fill two gas tanks in 8 minutes.

Still unanswered. Will the newest versions of Tesla Superchargers charge a Taycan at >150Kw?

that could be possible with V4 superchargers - we won't know until we have more practiacl experience

having road tripped with EV's since 2011 - from a prtical point of view I do not consider a 24 min charging session to be all that different than 28 min charging session -and that's about the difference in time for an optimal 270 kW charging session vs. an optimal 150 kw charging session - also given that I charge at home the rest of the time the actual time taken for a road trip charging session is immaterial over the course of my year and since I normally ad a walk/stretch-your-legs bio-break and food/snack to the stop - I find the car is ready before I am most of the time.

for me personally the 6 minute gas station break is no longer a priority - and honestly I still take longer even with a gas station break because of the other things you typically do once you pull off the road for a stop - I actually find the EV charging stop superior because unlike a gas fill up I can walk away and leave the car charging and not have to attend to it like I do a gasoline filler hose - I can park - plug-in and do other things until I decide to leave vs. gasoline stops which are more demanding of my attention.

the basic point is an actual solid/reliable 150 kW charge rate is not that much slower than an optimal 270 kW session which is not 270 kW for the entire session - only part of the session - the difference is less than 8 minutes

so if I drive 750 miles in one day (2 fast charging stops) that amounts to a 12 minutes longer spent charging at 150 kW stations vs. 270 kw stations vs. 11.5 hours drive time for 750 miles covered @ 65 mph - 12 min extra (6 mins at each of two 150 kW stations) - is not my biggest problem in 11+ hours of total travel time in a single day…

and given that I'm less likely to spend any time on the phone with a relaiable network it might actually be quicker.

charging at 270 kW makes no difference if one spends 15+ min on the phone with a EA representative to even activate the session…longer on the phone w/EA than the car actualy spends charging is a common problem with EA if all their stations aren't simply unavailable.

 

[irrelevant]

My understanding is that Tesla has started rolling out V4 superchargers which are 800v to charge the Cybertruck. There is at least one station now in Oregon. Those should fast charge the Taycan. So
Taycan w/o 400V option = 50kW at Tesla V3,
Taycan w 400V option = 150kW at V3,
any Taycan at Tesla V4, as fast as the car permits.

Thanks. I think more options are better than fewer, but for quick top ups to 50% or so, the older Tesla Superchargers can require roughly twice as much time to reach that charge level vs. a properly-functioning EA 350Kw dispenser...whenever those exist.

It's good to see Tesla is installing better Superchargers. I was underwhelmed when I "Supercharged" a rented Model S. Even after eating dinner at a sit-down restaurant, it still hadn't reach 80% charge.

 

[daveo4EV]

I think the best news here is probably that Tesla Supercharges will be added to Porsche's PCM navigation database - so they can be considered/included for trip planning and routing - that will be more useful to me on a day to day basis vs. say plug&charge support

I can deal with app based charge session activation (it's what I do for EA anyways when it works) - but the lack of Porsche Nav knowing there are useful chargers will pay dividends for everyone…

also Supercharger stall counts are just soooo superior to the typical 3/4/6 stall EA site (of which 2-6 stalls are offline for some reason)…

I look forward to 2025 and can now move forward with consideration for my 2025/2026 Taycan CT (Turbo or GTS)…woot!

 

[mc9er]

Are any of the Supercharger versions capable of charging the Taycan at >150Kw, or are we just gaining access to a more reliable, but slower charging network?

Aren’t there a bunch of Tesla supercharging stations that are 250Kw? I know the originals were 150 but around me, most are 250. Can’t we take advantage of that or is there a “cap” at 150 for some reason even if the charger is 250Kw rated?

 

[ender21]

Hope you have the 150 KW voltage booster. Otherwise you're going to be sorely disappointed charging at Bolt speeds on Tesla's 400 volt chargers.

Yeah unfortunately my Taycan's original owner seems to have spec'd everything under the sun except for that.

 

[whitex]

their is not standard for Porsche to adopt that does offer that support

Have you gone through the SAE NACS spec, perhaps they added one? That said, given that 2020 Taycans required a new physical charger replaced in order to provision Plug-And-Charge certificates, I'm going to assume Taycan chargers do not have updatable firmware.

 

[irrelevant]

Aren’t there a bunch of Tesla supercharging stations that are 250Kw? I know the originals were 150 but around me, most are 250. Can’t we take advantage of that or is there a “cap” at 150 for some reason even if the charger is 250Kw rated?

I find myself less and less interested in the Tesla world as time passes, and I'm not proficient with the nuts and bolts of DCFC, but I believe the majority of their Superchargers only output 400v, which is why we have to option the converter for our 800-volt Taycans, which is limited to 150Kw from a 400v charging source. If the converter isn't installed, 50Kw is the charge limit from a 400v source.

 

[ender21]

snip... I find the car is ready before I am most of the time.

for me personally the 6 minute gas station break is no longer a priority - snip...

so if I drive 750 miles in one day...snip...

Agreed. In an ICE I would push through as far as possible before filling up but now in an EV, first an older Model S, then a Model Y and now a Taycan, with a few exceptions, I am almost always the reason my charging stops take longer than my car's need.

However, I do challenge the notion that gas station stops are so short, especially the hyperbole of the idea that two gas tanks can be filled in 8 minutes. Conversely, people wait in 20-minute lines at a Costco to save $0.10 per gallon of gas, so time is money, apparently.

Years ago I had a 2011 Lexus CT200 and that got me 38mpg pretty regularly. With an 11.9gal tank, from empty to full the fastest I ever saw it fill - once I actually started paying attention to time - was 6 minutes. That was the absolute fastest. That isn't counting for pulling in, swiping the card, stopping at the stop light and waiting to turn in, and certainly not waiting for an open pump. I would fill up once every 7 days, so I decided to conservatively calculate a comparison between filling at the pump on its fastest day, with charging an EV (the 2013 Model S and it's slower charge speed, specifically). Filling up at my rate meant 5.2 hours *minimum* spent waiting per year. Owning an EV, by virtue of charging at home, I never spend any time waiting until I actually need to take a road trip requiring a charging stop. And since those aren't usually regularly scheduled, you may come out ahead, you may come out behind. I certainly come out ahead in $$ cost to fuel.

But to your point, daveo, on a long road trip there are far too many variables that affect total trip time to factor only charging time into the equation.

 

[daveo4EV]

Have you gone through the SAE NACS spec, perhaps they added one? That said, given that 2020 Taycans required a new physical charger replaced in order to provision Plug-And-Charge certificates, I'm going to assume Taycan chargers do not have updatable firmware.

I've not seen a standard for plug&charge beyond the one Taycan supports which is limited to single vendor (EA in North American right now)…

perhaps @AndiL will remind us of what's going on in ISO world here - I know there are new plug&charge stuff being considered/developed/discussed - and one of the main requirements is to support more than a single charging network…but I'm not up to speed on where we are…

 

[daveo4EV]

Aren’t there a bunch of Tesla supercharging stations that are 250Kw? I know the originals were 150 but around me, most are 250. Can’t we take advantage of that or is there a “cap” at 150 for some reason even if the charger is 250Kw rated?

Taycan is limited to 150 kW with $460 factory booster option or 50 kW "standard" for 400V FastDC charging

Tesla has 4 versions of fast charging:

• Urban Superchargers - 400V 72 kW - I don't think non-Teslas will ever work at these
• V2 Superchargers - 400V 125-150 kW - maybe non-Tesla's will work here
• V3 Superchargers - 400V 250 kW - CCS vehicle's 'welcome'
• V4 Superchargers - 400-1000V 250++ kW (maybe more)… - CCS vehicle's 'welcome'

most of what people are discussing here are V2/V3 superchargers for which the Taycan would be limited to 50/150 kW depending on onboard charging options…

V4 supercharger are so new and so rare it's unclear if Taycan could do 270kW but it's possible - I'm sure it will happen over time…

keep in mind NONE of this is that dramatic - Tesla Supercharger already work in Europe with non-Tesla's if Tesla allows it - so the manufacturers all already know their EV's work with Tesla's superchargers and Tesla's superchargers already work with most vehicle's- this has never been a technical problem - always one of lacking business engagement with both Tesla and the other Auto guys sharing blame here for making customer lives more difficult.

 

[Jonathan S.]

"most of what people are discussing here are V2/V3 superchargers for which the Taycan would be limited to 50/150 kW depending on onboard charging options…"
I thought for V2 that anything other than a Tesla is limited to 0 kW given that those Superchargers do not support CCS1 communication protocols?
(Will be interesting if some V3-only stations become so busy with CCS1 refugees that Tesla owners start seeking out the V2 chargers.)

 

[whitex]

V4 supercharger are so new and so rare it's unclear if Taycan could do 270kW but it's possible - I'm sure it will happen over time…

From what I read, the Cybertruck is using the 800V battery, so Tesla has some vested interest in supporting it, though I suspect they designed it to charge as 2 400V halves in parallel for existing 400V chargers.

 

[whitex]

I thought for V2 that anything other than a Tesla is limited to 0 kW given that those Superchargers do not support CCS1 communication protocols?

That's the word on the street. It is also unclear whether the Urban supercharger speaks CCS protocol.

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