Best electricity tariff for EV switching today

[Jonttt]

This is bad information. This conflates two distinct issues - 1) lots of very high power fast DC charging can degrade the HV battery, and 2) maintaining charge above 80/85% for extended periods of time can degrade also.

It is not the case that charging 'gently' to 100% via L1/L2 AC charging gets you off the hook for #2.

PS. Please let's not have the 100% debate all over again.

You don't get it, thats fine

Sponsored

 

[tchavei]

I agree with this totally in my none expert but logical way ;-)

it follows that the generic AC v DC is not the actual differentialtor as I stated but rather the actual charge rate used, with AC v DC being too generic in that regard, thank you for clarifying logically ;-)

I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that 100% battery charge is not actually 100% battery ie my battery is c95kw but "useable" 100% charge is less than this 85kw (sorry can't remember the exact numbers) ie Porsche have built in the tolerances that you refer to in your analogy so that the bag is never actually full even at 100% charge, hence why 100% charge at "slower" charge rates is fine. Thats how it was explained to me.

True. There appears to be a higher and a lower buffer built-in to be able to meet that 8 year warranty so maybe 100% isn't as bad as on a phone.

 

[Jonttt]

Just checked my battery (Turbo) is 93.4kWh capacity with 83.7kWh being useable (100%). Therefore the useable capacity is c90% of the actual battery capacity.

Further in charging the battery to 85% of the useable battery = c71kWH that equates to only 76% of the actual battery capacity.

Thats why it was explained to me that charging to 100% useable capacity if majority is on slower AC chargers is OK as it has an inbuild safety net.

Occasional 100% DC fast charges are OK (as I did on a recent 400+mile business trip). Its more a matter of etiquate (another subject matters) in that a 90->100% charge takes much longer if people are waiting and you really don't need that extra 10% charge to full.

 

[satchurator]

You don't get it, thats fine

Allow me to translate:
'I'm not a physicist, and I'm not an expert, but my buddy / Sales Associate told me something and I want to believe always-100%-charging is without consequence, so I'm unable to recognize that my logic has confirmation bias'

The actual vs usable capacity argument gets trotted out in every 100% charging debate here. Porsche's 80% guidance takes full usable capacity into account.

If you're a self-described layperson, you have no business declaring who gets it and who doesn't.

 

[Jonttt]

Allow me to translate:
'I'm not a physicist, and I'm not an expert, but my buddy / Sales Associate told me something and I want to believe always-100%-charging is without consequence, so I'm unable to recognize that my logic has confirmation bias'

The actual vs usable capacity argument gets trotted out in every 100% charging debate here. Porsche's 80% guidance takes full usable capacity into account.

If you're a self-described layperson, you have no business declaring who gets it and who doesn't.

Your interet bias is somewhat ironic, think about it, I'll help ........

So porsche allow charging past the "useable" battery capacity ie 100% charge as indicated by my car is 93.4kWh and not 83.7kWh. Wow, so useable is a lie by Porsche, I can use more. This gets better and better. I know that possible with a Tesla but I was under the impression that Porsche (as with many other EV manufacturers) "lock" the battery so that its not possible (by a normal person like me) to charge to the actual battery capacity. Hence why 100% indicated is NOT 100% capacity.

Of course I could be completely wrong and happy for you to prove to me that the SOC indicated on the car = the actual SOC of the physical battery and therefore "useable" is a lie........

I look forward to your evidence with regard to this for the Taycan. In the meantime some light reading for you from a normally accurate source, https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36051980/evs-explained-battery-capacity-gross-versus-net/

• Gross or Total Capacity is the total amount of energy the pack can theoretically hold.
• Net or Usable Capacity is the amount of energy the car can actually draw on to propel itself.

The difference is necessary because completely depleting a battery down to its very last electron can damage it or shorten its life. Automakers build in margins to prevent batteries from discharging completely and from charging right up to 100 percent of capacity. Those margins are only a few percentage points, but they matter.

The confusion comes when manufacturers quote a battery capacity without saying whether it’s gross or net. You want to know the net capacity, since that’s the energy available to the driver. We only quote net capacity, and if the carmaker won’t provide that exact figure, our editors use standard factors to estimate the car’s net battery energy.

For example: the Porsche Taycan, the brand’s first EV. The company initially quoted only gross battery capacity, which is 93.4 kWh and, later, 79.2 kWh for the smaller of the two available packs. Repeated questions from reporters, however, convinced Porsche to provide the usable, capacities as well: 83.7 kWh and 71.0 kWh. Those lower capacity figures explained some of the early disappointment over the Taycan's relatively modest range figures, although it fares considerably better in real-world testing.

In each case, Porsche reserves about 10 percent of total capacity to guard against complete discharge or overcharging. That seems to be similar to other brands, although automakers tend to be extremely reluctant to provide details.

The usable capacity generally aligns with the car's indicated state of charge (0–100 percent) the driver sees. Though different automakers have different strategies about the low-end buffer and some provide additional miles even after you hit an indicated 0 percent. Often the last thing preceding a stranding is a “snail mode,” a few miles of slow, low-speed travel. But even then the car isn't tapping into the off-limits gross portion. A good analogy is the “low fuel” warning light on gasoline or diesel cars. Most modern cars now offer an estimated range remaining when that warning flips on, but even if you drive the car right down to 0 miles, there’s usually a small amount of fuel in reserve you can tap.

ps I've also pushed SOC to nearly empty, I like to live dangerously. Twice I have got down to 2 miles SOC and then charged. I've heard off my pub mate who owns an allegro than Porsche don't allow much if any tolerance below 0 which is why the range is so accurage (I think it is based on my experience so far). Given he had not downed his 10th pint (his normal bullshit cut off point) I decided to believe him.

The moral of the story, don't assume who I have been speaking to or who my "buddies" are and make sure you are right before you make a fool of yourself. You keep charging your car to 76% of actual capacity, your battery will be fine and you will be happy and I fear none the wiser given your apparent lack of ability to think for yourself.

 

[tchavei]

now gentlemen, let's not fight over this.

The ideal charge state of a lithium battery is 50% (for storage for example). It's the level where least deterioration occurs yet we have to drive the thing so anything will, more or less, deteriorate the battery.

I'm a long term keeper so I will charge up as much as I need, not how much I can fill in. I guess same goes for 90% of the population and their ICE cars. Who fills up the gas tank nowadays anyway? Certainly not me. just feeling the weight of the fuel in my butt is... cringe.

 

[satchurator]

Your interet bias is somewhat ironic, think about it, I'll help ........

So porsche allow charging past the "useable" battery capacity ie 100% charge as indicated by my car is 93.4kWh and not 83.7kWh. Wow, so useable is a lie by Porsche, I can use more. This gets better and better. I know that possible with a Tesla but I was under the impression that Porsche (as with many other EV manufacturers) "lock" the battery so that its not possible (by a normal person like me) to charge to the actual battery capacity. Hence why 100% indicated is NOT 100% capacity.

Of course I could be completely wrong and happy for you to prove to me that the SOC indicated on the car = the actual SOC of the physical battery and therefore "useable" is a lie........

I look forward to your evidence with regard to this for the Taycan. In the meantime some light reading for you from a normally accurate source, https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36051980/evs-explained-battery-capacity-gross-versus-net/

• Gross or Total Capacity is the total amount of energy the pack can theoretically hold.
• Net or Usable Capacity is the amount of energy the car can actually draw on to propel itself.

The difference is necessary because completely depleting a battery down to its very last electron can damage it or shorten its life. Automakers build in margins to prevent batteries from discharging completely and from charging right up to 100 percent of capacity. Those margins are only a few percentage points, but they matter.

The confusion comes when manufacturers quote a battery capacity without saying whether it’s gross or net. You want to know the net capacity, since that’s the energy available to the driver. We only quote net capacity, and if the carmaker won’t provide that exact figure, our editors use standard factors to estimate the car’s net battery energy.

For example: the Porsche Taycan, the brand’s first EV. The company initially quoted only gross battery capacity, which is 93.4 kWh and, later, 79.2 kWh for the smaller of the two available packs. Repeated questions from reporters, however, convinced Porsche to provide the usable, capacities as well: 83.7 kWh and 71.0 kWh. Those lower capacity figures explained some of the early disappointment over the Taycan's relatively modest range figures, although it fares considerably better in real-world testing.

In each case, Porsche reserves about 10 percent of total capacity to guard against complete discharge or overcharging. That seems to be similar to other brands, although automakers tend to be extremely reluctant to provide details.

The usable capacity generally aligns with the car's indicated state of charge (0–100 percent) the driver sees. Though different automakers have different strategies about the low-end buffer and some provide additional miles even after you hit an indicated 0 percent. Often the last thing preceding a stranding is a “snail mode,” a few miles of slow, low-speed travel. But even then the car isn't tapping into the off-limits gross portion. A good analogy is the “low fuel” warning light on gasoline or diesel cars. Most modern cars now offer an estimated range remaining when that warning flips on, but even if you drive the car right down to 0 miles, there’s usually a small amount of fuel in reserve you can tap.

ps I've also pushed SOC to nearly empty, I like to live dangerously. Twice I have got down to 2 miles SOC and then charged. I've heard off my pub mate who owns an allegro than Porsche don't allow much if any tolerance below 0 which is why the range is so accurage (I think it is based on my experience so far). Given he had not downed his 10th pint (his normal bullshit cut off point) I decided to beleive him.

This is just not that big a deal. It's not a conspiracy. Repeatedly charging to 100% is less ideal than maintaining at 80% until prior to a longer trip.

The EV manufacturers are inconsistent about how they state these numbers - not stating actual (vs usable) is more to do with avoiding consumer
confusion or having amateurs take things into their own hands by trying to be a human Battery Management System. If you go buy an SSD for your computer, those are over-provisioned and have wear-leveling. It's not that Seagate has some wicked conspiracy to deprive consumers of that hidden extra 10%, it's hidden in order to maintain a target level of reliability at the stated capacity.

If I had more energy for this debate, I'd contact 5-10 EV battery engineers and obtain facts, and scientific comprehension rather than deal with conjecture and conspiracy.

In other news, the earth is not flat.

 

[Jonttt]

I am better informed than I was but am more than happy that the principle of 100% charge (which is not 100% of the batteries capacity) is fine on a slow charger with occassional 100% charge on a fast charger.
Using the car at all is always a compromise but for business users the "myth" of you should not charge to 100% SOC at home is not correct.

ps I always used to fill my daily and keep it filled but thats more due to the fact I have always done that. Its even more important for me with an EV daily as I could have to drive anywhere at short notice and charging for free at work or 10p at home makes a big difference because I'm that tight ;-)

 

[Shigura]

This thread seems to have wondered off the title subject!

 

[Jonttt]

….but I can maximise my OVO charge Anytime 10p tariff buy charging to 100% (which is not really 100%) ….see back on topic

 

[Nickj]

I think it is just coincidence. Kaluza users are noticing the loss of LTE because they rely on it for charging at a discounted rate. Others maybe not so much if they set timers and profiles in the car or have a recurring timer set in the car or by the Porsche App.

Im not so sure on this. I agree I’m studying LTE now but unless I’m mistaken does DAB radio not get lost with no LTE? I have my display set to show dab and immediately noticed the loss as you just get a grey box with a line through it. I’ve never seen this in 2.5 years and I drive my car daily, until I lost LTE for 2 days, just one week after activating charge anytime?? Seems too much of a coincidence to me, and everyone’s who is on charge anytime is all of a sudden having LTE issues and needing to book into dealer?!

 

[Speuk]

Im not so sure on this. I agree I’m studying LTE now but unless I’m mistaken does DAB radio not get lost with no LTE? I have my display set to show dab and immediately noticed the loss as you just get a grey box with a line through it. I’ve never seen this in 2.5 years until I lost LTE for 2 days, and one week after activating charge anytime?? Seems too much of a coincidence to me, and everyone’s who is on charge anytime is all of a sudden having LTE issues and needing to book into dealer?!

DAB radio and LTE are completely different....
LTE is broadcast from mobile masts.
A number of frequency bands are used for 4G LTE in the UK. There's the 800MHz band, the 1400MHz / 1.4GHz band, the 1800MHz / 1.8GHz band, the 2100MHz / 2.6GHz band, the 2300MHz / 2.3GHz band, and the 2600MHz / 2.6G

DAB broadcasts on frequency block 12B (225.648 MHz) from the BBC's transmitters.
So I'm not sure the loss of one can be linked to the loss of the other

 

[Nickj]

DAB radio and LTE are completely different....
LTE is broadcast from mobile masts.
A number of frequency bands are used for 4G LTE in the UK. There's the 800MHz band, the 1400MHz / 1.4GHz band, the 1800MHz / 1.8GHz band, the 2100MHz / 2.6GHz band, the 2300MHz / 2.3GHz band, and the 2600MHz / 2.6G

DAB broadcasts on frequency block 12B (225.648 MHz) from the BBC's transmitters.
So I'm not sure the loss of one can be linked to the loss of the other

ok, happy to stand corrected. Just seemed odd the day I lost LTE, I lost dab for first time in 2.5 years of ownership.

 

[Nickj]

ok, happy to stand corrected. Just seemed odd the day I lost LTE, I lost dab for first time in 2.5 years of ownership.

Just thinking, but if the DAB frequency was poor would LTE as an internal SIM card source not kick in and bridge the signal gap potentially on a different network? Therefore I could have always had poor DAB frequency unbeknown to me being covered up by LTE connectivity?

 

[Speuk]

Just thinking, but if the DAB frequency was poor would LTE as an internal SIM card source not kick in and bridge the signal gap potentially on a different network? Therefore I could have always had poor DAB frequency unbeknown to me being covered up by LTE connectivity?

Ah, you may have a point. You might have been receiving online radio?

Sponsored