GTS Ride Quality with or without Active Ride

[dcp10]

The worse the road, the better the Taycan feels..

Sounds perfect for my local roads then

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[prj]

For me, I want it to feel a little more raw, sportscar like. The PASM keeps the car flat enough that it feels like a train. Body roll isn’t a “problem” it’s a signal that tells you about your grip.

Cars with PAR have better traction and their balance is not upset as easily, as every individual wheel can follow the road better. That's also why the Turbo GT Weissach has PAR.

Active suspension > Passive suspension from both a performance and comfort suspension standpoint. Having your lunch and eating it.

 

[RED!]

Cars with PAR have better traction and their balance is not upset as easily, as every individual wheel can follow the road better. That's also why the Turbo GT Weissach has PAR.

Active suspension > Passive suspension from both a performance and comfort suspension standpoint. Having your lunch and eating it.

I guess my concern is that you have no good warnings that you’re reaching the end of physics (or talent) when the car “fixes” the problems for you. I always hear about people who “flipped their Porsche” on a cloverleaf - IMO they ran out of talent and were oblivious to the signs the car was giving them.

I’ve really enjoyed power sliding the GTS in the snowy roads, but I’m only 6/10ths with the car because I have not had the opportunity to find a safe place to feel the “just before it lets go” feeling that I’m pretty sure is unique to the Taycans setup and weight distribution. I know what it feels like in a 2700 lb ICE car front, rear and mid engined. No idea what 5000 lbs of low weight tells you before it’s had enough.

Great opening video here:

 

[prj]

I guess my concern is that you have no good warnings that you’re reaching the end of physics (or talent) when the car “fixes” the problems for you. I always hear about people who “flipped their Porsche” on a cloverleaf - IMO they ran out of talent and were oblivious to the signs the car was giving them.

That's not the case at all. I recommend driving a car with PAR instead of pushing a narrative with little basis in reality.
Any J1.2 with PAR > any J1.1, it's as simple as that. Both from a comfort and from a performance standpoint.

Active suspension is already "cheating." Any further development was banned in F1 out of the concern for the cornering speeds. Having each corner individually actuated in 20ms is a whole new level...

 

[RED!]

That's not the case at all. I recommend driving a car with PAR instead of pushing a narrative with little basis in reality.
Any J1.2 with PAR > any J1.1, it's as simple as that. Both from a comfort and from a performance standpoint.

I’m not pushing a narrative, I’m suggesting that anything that improves handling allows the driver to drive closer to the performance envelope defined by the physics of the vehicle setup. I think it’s clear when you exceed the envelope bad things happen.

If you’re driving on the street, responsibly, then either you don’t need it, or it doesn’t matter. If youre using it to push the car, then you should be cautious since you may exceed your reaction time. As someone who’s spent time on the track with EFR, Scott Goodyear, Ron Fellows, and more I can tell you that although I can win local racers and students and instructors think I’m a great driver, I SUCK compared to a pro. That means I’m humble about my abilities to handle a car that can outperform my skills.

 

[prj]

I’m not pushing a narrative, I’m suggesting that anything that improves handling allows the driver to drive closer to the performance envelope defined by the physics of the vehicle setup. I think it’s clear when you exceed the envelope bad things happen.

What even is this logic? Should we all be driving vans because they handle badly or something?
PAR makes grip more consistent especially on imperfect/bumpy roads.

Roads where an unexpected bump on one side could send your GTS with stiff ARB's off the road.
If anything it makes the car way safer at the limit in unforeseen circumstances. You don't get less feedback of the road in any way.

Your logic is - making a better handling car is bad? Really? Just stop.
Drive a car with PAR then you will understand how what you're saying here makes zero sense.

 

[SoccerMan94043]

I guess my concern is that you have no good warnings that you’re reaching the end of physics (or talent) when the car “fixes” the problems for you.

This is a hypothesis since I've never pushed it that far, but I suspect you'll hear the tires before disaster happens. We have EVs and not too much other noise so we can focus on just the tires (I suspect it would be harder to hear in Panamera with PAR).

 

[Fun TC Driving]

The places to test handling limits are never cloverleafs nor public roads of any kind, but instead race tracks or if you happen to be near a massive, empty industrial parking lot without poles or any cars on it when the business is not in service.

 

[Mr.Smith]

I guess my concern is that you have no good warnings that you’re reaching the end of physics (or talent) when the car “fixes” the problems for you. I always hear about people who “flipped their Porsche” on a cloverleaf - IMO they ran out of talent and were oblivious to the signs the car was giving them.

I’ve really enjoyed power sliding the GTS in the snowy roads, but I’m only 6/10ths with the car because I have not had the opportunity to find a safe place to feel the “just before it lets go” feeling that I’m pretty sure is unique to the Taycans setup and weight distribution. I know what it feels like in a 2700 lb ICE car front, rear and mid engined. No idea what 5000 lbs of low weight tells you before it’s had enough.

Great opening video here:

PAR compensated for my lack of talent a few times. Once going 141mph, late braking into a turn in the canyons, the anti Dive really saved me and I took the turn nicely.
I was in Sport Plus which you feel the least, but you still feel the weight

@f1eng said they were working on this technology years ago for F1, but was banned.

 

[SoccerMan94043]

The places to test handling limits are never cloverleafs nor public roads of any kind, but instead race tracks or if you happen to be near a massive, empty industrial parking lot without poles or any cars on it when the business is not in service.

I was in some nice, curvy back roads last week pushing 100 MPH on the straights and 40-50 around most of turns and I didn't get much tire noise. The car stayed planted and fully in control despite my lack of talent. Not sure I'm willing to push my car more than that, but I would like to try something similar on the track to see.

 

[prj]

The places to test handling limits are never cloverleafs nor public roads of any kind, but instead race tracks or if you happen to be near a massive, empty industrial parking lot without poles or any cars on it when the business is not in service.

Yes, that's true. The whole point is that PAR makes the car more consistent on a rough surface.

Let's compare just the ARB simulation with PAR.
A very stiff ARB means the car doesn't lean in the corner, however if there is a bump that only part of the car hits then it upsets the other side as well and is not ideal from a comfort or traction perspective.

A very soft ARB means the car leans a lot more in the corner, however if there is a bump on one side then the other side is not affected as much.

What PDCC did on the J1.1 was have the ARB's soft normally, but harden them proportionally depending on the cornering force. This improved the balance between the lean during heavy cornering (stiff ARB = no lean) and comfort when driving in a less spirited fashion - soft ARB, so left to right is more independent of each other.
However, this still does not solve the issue of hitting a bump with one side of the car mid corner. It can cause the entire axle of the car to lose traction and upset the whole balance of the car.

Enter PAR.
Suddenly you have both the hardest and the stiffest virtual ARB simultaneously. Not only can you completely eliminate body roll, you can do that without affecting comfort, and having the side to side suspension completely decoupled, hence if you hit a bump on one side, the other one is barely affected at all.
And then consider that because it's fully independent on all 4 corners, it works not only side to side, but diagonally and front to rear as well, all at the same time, all within 20ms.

The result is much more consistency towards the limit, making the car not only perform better but ultimately safer to drive, because there are fewer surprises.
It's not going to do anything if the driver is exceeding the limit, but it makes the limit much more consistent, much easier to gauge, and by extent much less likely for you to exceed because of varying evenness of the surface.

 

[RED!]

Yes, that's true. The whole point is that PAR makes the car more consistent on a rough surface.

Let's compare just the ARB simulation with PAR.
A very stiff ARB means the car doesn't lean in the corner, however if there is a bump that only part of the car hits then it upsets the other side as well and is not ideal from a comfort or traction perspective.

A very soft ARB means the car leans a lot more in the corner, however if there is a bump on one side then the other side is not affected as much.

What PDCC did on the J1.1 was have the ARB's soft normally, but harden them proportionally depending on the cornering force. This improved the balance between the lean during heavy cornering (stiff ARB = no lean) and comfort when driving in a less spirited fashion - soft ARB, so left to right is more independent of each other.
However, this still does not solve the issue of hitting a bump with one side of the car mid corner. It can cause the entire axle of the car to lose traction and upset the whole balance of the car.

Enter PAR.
Suddenly you have both the hardest and the stiffest virtual ARB simultaneously. Not only can you completely eliminate body roll, you can do that without affecting comfort, and having the side to side suspension completely decoupled, hence if you hit a bump on one side, the other one is barely affected at all.
And then consider that because it's fully independent on all 4 corners, it works not only side to side, but diagonally and front to rear as well, all at the same time, all within 20ms.

The result is much more consistency towards the limit, making the car not only perform better but ultimately safer to drive, because there are fewer surprises.
It's not going to do anything if the driver is exceeding the limit, but it makes the limit much more consistent, much easier to gauge, and by extent much less likely for you to exceed because of varying evenness of the surface.

I think the difference between your POV and mine is that I’ve watched (and been in) cars that hit the limit when the driver hasn’t gotten slow feedback or feels over confidence becuase they are unaware they are at the limit. Having instructed for Ferrari Club for almost two decades, I’m generally the guy they put into the car with the person who just bought a $700k+ carbon fiber Ferrari Racecar that is built as a street car and the guy thinks he’s a hero. Typically these are the BIG crashes because the driver hasn’t developed the reaction time to realize and compensate for the car’s ability to absorb bad driving cues.

In my opinion, everyone should learn to race on an underpowered car with shit tires and a soft suspension. That’s when you learn subtleties. It’s too late when you’re relying on the electronics to save your car.

That said, I’m not knocking the electronics, just saying that they can get you into trouble if you’re not careful, and I’m not certain that driving a “perfect” handling machine is more fun than driving a lose car with predictable dynamics - like my NSX, (which many inexperienced drivers claim has “snap oversteer” and I think provides tons of warning)

 

[prj]

In my opinion, everyone should learn to race on an underpowered car with shit tires and a soft suspension. That’s when you learn subtleties. It’s too late when you’re relying on the electronics to save your car.

If you don't like electronics then go drive a miata without traction control on skinny tyres, and leave the more expensive toys for those that can appreciate them. Why are you here?
Why are you assuming that everyone of us buying these cars can't drive for shit? Get off your high horse.

PAR does not save anyone from poor decisions, it makes the car more comfortable and improves handling/traction on uneven surfaces to be more consistent.
It makes the car safer and handle better, just like traction control or ABS makes the car safer and handle better.

This whole tangent you're going off on is not related to the topic at hand whatsoever.

 

[RED!]

If you don't like electronics then go drive a miata without traction control on skinny tyres, and leave the more expensive toys for those that can appreciate them. Why are you here?
Why are you assuming that everyone of us buying these cars can't drive for shit? Get off your high horse.

PAR does not save anyone from poor decisions, it makes the car more comfortable and improves handling/traction on uneven surfaces to be more consistent.
It makes the car safer and handle better, just like traction control or ABS makes the car safer and handle better.

This whole tangent you're going off on is not related to the topic at hand whatsoever.

Wow, I think someone needs a hug…

I think you’re taking personally my point of view which is simply the car is more fun to drive when it’s less forgiving - which is why I chose the GTS in the first place. If you noticed my signature, I have a bunch of older cars with less electronic traction stuff on purpose. I’m not on a horse, I just have a point of view, which is if you’re buying the car and hope to throw it around perhaps too much electronic intervention removes the fun and introduces its own safety issues.

Please understand, I’m not saying anything about your preference, it’s your money and your point of view. You’re entitled to it, and I’m certainly not trying to shut you up or make recommendations about how you should live your life or what you should buy. I’m sorry you’re offended by my point of view.

 

[prj]

This thread is about PAR discussion, it does not seem like you have any experience with the system, so there is zero point to continue derailing it. You are not adding anything useful to the discussion.

All the allegations you have made about PAR are incorrect.

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