Nice vid about ceramic brakes

[Jhenson29]

What he is saying is in the context of a f1 car

When he was commenting on @Skilly ’s R8?

Sponsored

 

[OTPSkipper]

When he was commenting on @Skilly ’s R8?

I don’t think so. It was in this thread towards the top. He talks about tests he did on early carbon ceramic breaks. Now I would guess the car was still designed for iron breaks at that time. I’ll take a look.

 

[OTPSkipper]

Third post in this thread.
https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/nice-vid-about-ceramic-brakes.10964/post-159067

 

[Jhenson29]

I don’t think so. It was in this thread towards the top. He talks about tests he did on early carbon ceramic breaks. Now I would guess the car was still designed for iron breaks at that time. I’ll take a look.

I’m saying, he also made comments on the R8, here:

Obviously any optional extra somebody wants to spend money on is a personal choice and I do think they look nicer but if somebody feels a noticable performance difference on the road it is 99.9% likely to be expectation bias, not a real difference.

Those comments are in the context of a road car. Not F1. At least that how I read them.

So discussion of road cars is fair game and not out of context.

That’s the extent of my opinion though. I have nothing to add to the main discussion. Carry on. It’s certainly more interesting that seat colors.

 

[Mike in CA]

You are treating unsprung weight reduction as an absolute, I think. Good engineers don’t do that. Everything is a balance. @f1eng already said that fade is totally controllable with iron brakes with proper airflow. My guess is that the real advantage for f1 is allowing more creative use of that airflow because the breaks don’t need it any more.

As for Taycan, I think you are reduced to the dust argument. Is that worth the bucks?

Ok, I freely admit this is just a pet peeve of mine and nothing personal, but can we at least agree that the word is "brakes" not "breaks"?

I'm not treating un-sprung weight as an absolute. If there was an engineering or performance downside to un-sprung weight reduction, I might agree with you about the "balance" issue, but there's not and I would ask you to name one if you think there is. Even in the example you cite, carbon brakes on an F1 car not only save weight, but they also eliminate some of the aerodynamic penalties associated with the airflow that would be required to cool iron brakes. It's a win-win.

As for PCCB's on the Taycan,. even if you (unfairly IMO) discount any performance advantage, in addition to reducing brake dust they also look very cool. Some folks spend thousands on trim upgrades and treatments that offer absolutely zero performance improvement. More power to them, but personally I'll spring for an elegantly engineered piece of hardware over trim any day of the week. Besides, as @bsclywilly mentioned earlier, spending money in hopes of even marginal gains is part of the fun of being an enthusiast!

 

[OTPSkipper]

I'm not treating un-sprung weight as an absolute. If there was an engineering or performance downside to un-sprung weight reduction, I might agree with you about the "balance" issue, but there's not and I would ask you to name one if you think there is.

Spell check is my friend. Most of the time. ?

So cost is a part of any engineering balancing effort. Maybe I am just too cheap to spring for something PCCB. Why isn’t cost a balancing factor?

 

[bsclywilly]

Spell check is my friend. Most of the time. ?

So cost is a part of any engineering balancing effort. Maybe I am just too cheap to spring for something PCCB. Why isn’t cost a balancing factor?

I can’t afford PCCB. But I will say engineering problems that can be solved with money are the easiest to have. Much better than when you’re limited by physics and such.

 

[OTPSkipper]

No one care when you solve a problem with a solution no one can afford. As an engineer, cost comes into everything I do. If it isn’t material cost, then it is limited design time (another cost).

 

[Mike in CA]

Spell check is my friend. Most of the time. ?

So cost is a part of any engineering balancing effort. Maybe I am just too cheap to spring for something PCCB. Why isn’t cost a balancing factor?

Fair enough. Adding cost into the equation is a separate issue as is the requirement for safety and reliability. You wouldn't engineer a suspension made from balsa wood. But all else being equal, for maximum performance a chassis engineer will create the lowest mass design suitable for the purpose.

 

[bsclywilly]

No one care when you solve a problem with a solution no one can afford. As an engineer, cost comes into everything I do. If it isn’t material cost, then it is limited design time (another cost).

There are many more problems that can’t be solved no matter how much money you have.

Anyways this thread is far too serious for a Friday afternoon. Have you guys seen the thread about the new My Porsche app? It’s turned in to an iOS vs android debate. We all got too much time on our hands.

 

[Mike in CA]

No one care when you solve a problem with a solution no one can afford. As an engineer, cost comes into everything I do. If it isn’t material cost, then it is limited design time (another cost).

We're really talking now about two different things. I fully understand the need to engineer to a cost; I dealt with that for 30 years. OTOH, if you gave me a clean sheet of paper and an unlimited budget I would likely come up with a different solution than one that was based predominantly on the bottom line.

$9K for PCCB's is a lot. Still, to keep things in perspective, most people would also recoil at spending 6 figures for an automobile, something that almost everyone on this forum has done, many more than once. In that context, it's not super hard to fit PCCB's into a budget as long as you're willing to choose them over, say, the top tier sound system or the fancy carbon trim. In my case, the cost of PCCB's represented less than 7% of my projected allocation for the car. Given that I also had to have Mission E wheels which come with a mandatory PCSB upgrade, the PCCB's were really only an extra 3% so it was worth it for me. It's just a matter of priorities and how you want to spend what is already guaranteed to be a lot of money.

 

[OTPSkipper]

Anyways this thread is far too serious for a Friday afternoon. Have you guys seen the thread about the new My Porsche app? It’s turned in to an iOS vs android debate. We all got too much time on our hands.

My car is in San Diego hopefully waiting for a truck. Just excited about it being so close. But it could be stuck waiting for some part too.

 

[daveo4EV]

• Porsche's cast iron brakes are excellent - truly industry leading excellent
• All brakes are equal when they are 100% cool
• All brakes are equal _IF_ you can keep them cool between usage
• Porsche invests a lot of design and reduced fuel efficiency to cool their brakes (more aero drag to cool brakes)
• Brakes cool between brake pedal applications "recovering" their effectiveness
• so the question is - how much do I need to use the brakes to overwhelm Porsche's very very effective cooling and rotor designs
• the Answer is _A LOT_ for Porsche's excellent cast-iron brakes - 30 to 40 min of full pace track driving…
• PCCB's can absorb MORE thermal energy than cast-iron brakes - the question is how much energy does it take to "overwhelm" the thermal capacity of cast-iron brake to get into "brake fade"
• the answer again is _A LOT_ of driving at way more than 100 mph top speeds, with back to back brake pedal applications from very high speeds, and then rinse, lather, repeat
  • this type of usage is very difficult if not impossible in road driving - even spirited road driving
  • and lots and lots of cooling opportunities in "road driving" "recovering" the brake's thermal capacity
• Porsche's cast iron brakes on all their vehicles are torture tested to experience no brake fade under conditions you will never encounter in _ANY_ street driving circumstances - even spirited driving
• PCCB's super power is "thermal endurance" - lack of brake fade after long periods of high brake usage
  • tapping in to this super power requires a LOT more than spirited driving
  • it requires dedicated full pace "Lapping" on a driving circuit with back to back to back brake usage
• the Taycan does not have enough battery power _OR_ enough battery thermal endurance to drive it hard enough and long enough to overwhelm Porsche's excellent cast iron brakes (normal or PCSB)
• PCCB's are 100% waste of money on this vehicle
  • between Regen handling 90% of deceleration on average over the life of the vehicle
  • limited power capacity and battery-thermal endurance
• brake fade on the Taycan with cast iron brakes in any street driving circumstance is _NOT_ a thing
• even if you track your Taycan it can't be on track long enough and driven hard enough to overwhelm the cast iron brakes _BEFORE_ you'll run out of battery (either power or thermal endurance)
• I've tracked my 2018 911 GT3 (and other's since 2009) with and with out ceramics - it takes me over 30 min on track at full pace to overwhelm Porsche's cast-iron brakes - 30 minute of FULL PACE lapping to experience some brake fade
  • of course my ceramics are better - but I'm rarely on track at full pace for more than 30 min
  • Taycan can't be on track for 30 min - it will run out of actual power or battery thermal limits before the cast iron brakes are an issue
    • given on track consumption at full pace - my experience @ Laguna is you're down on power due to battery thermal limts chopping throttle power after about 15 min on track
    • you are also down 53% battery in the same time period
  • the Taycan lacks sufficient battery power capacity to be on track long enough for brake fade to be an issue
  • the Taycan lacks sufficient battery thermal capacity to be on track long enough for brake fade to be an issue (before it will reach max battery temp and limit your throttle to help the battery remain cool)
  • most "track days" lapping sessions are 20 min or less through out the day
• Also being 5,100 lbs - _ANY_ street tire you're running will be greasy and overwhelmed and losing grip long before Porsche's cast-iron brakes at anywhere near their thermal capacity limits
  • once your tires are overwhelmed and greasy (in about 12 min with Taycan) you no longer can achieve maximum braking effectiveness and again will not be taxing Porsche's excellent cast-iron brakes thermal capacity
• and before you say "but but but Nurbergring…" - a ring lap is 8 min or less - and Porsche says nothing about Taycan's ability to run 2 laps back to back - in fact Porsche has NEVER disclosed consumption numbers for Taycan @ the ring…
  • based on my direct tracking experience the MOST Taycan could run would be 2 laps before running out of power - I think it's more like 1.8 laps based on my experience consumption numbers
  • Pro drivers will consume more power not less than track rats like myself - so less battery capacity vs. lapping
  • higher battery discharge rates = more battery heat = battery thermal limits sooner = power reduction sooner = no longer need peak braking effectiveness if you have lost 60% of your throttle capacity
• no one needs PCCB's for less than 15 min of full pace/max-performance driving which is about all the Taycan can muster (probably less if you could run it down to 2% battery or less)
• Start at 100% battery - drive as fast as you can on track - any track - with no pause and two things happen to the Taycan
  • one you're consuming a sh*t ton of power - i'm down 50% battery in less than 6 laps @ laguna seca
  • you will heat up the Taycan's battery - once it hits 132F temperature - you no longer have full capacity on your throttle to let the battery cool
    • lack of full throtlle = lack of full pace = much easier on the brakes (allowing them to cool)
• I was at the Porsche Experience Center this past tuesday - I did the Taycan experience for the fun of it - you get 90 min out on "track" at PECLA - during of that 90 min about 12-15 of it was "on track" at full pace
  • of the remaining time it's slow drifting, launch control, etc - nothing that would tax the brakes
  • the non-lapping circuits are not brake heavy - skid pad, launch control, kick plate, etc…
  • I got two separate full pace lapping sessions chasing a 911 Turbo (lead follow) on PECLA's full circuit (fun course)
  • We were at tire grip limits given G-meter reads and Porsche instructor feedback - we were also the fastest two cars out on track at the time - we were moving!!
  • we would do about 6 laps before "cooling down the car" - both the Taycan and the 911 TurboS (instructor's car)
    • after 5-6 laps tires were "giving way" dropping pace and increasing stopping distances and lowering cornering confidence - so cool down laps were in order…
    • NOTE: cooling down the tires also cools down the brakes - again the cast iron brakes would fully recover during this period of time
    • 6 laps @ PECLA will not cause brake fade for cast iron - and 6 or more laps the tires are toast given the vehicle's weight
  • So I did 12-14 laps @ PECLA - in two separate "lapping sessions" in one 90 min period - lead/follow with a 911 Turbo and the Taycan kept up - impressive - less than 20 min full pace run time
  • my PECLA sessions started 98% battery
  • 90 min later my Battery in PECLA's Taycan Turbo S (after 14 or fewer laps) was 17%
    • instructor noted that most PECLA student come in from Taycan 90 min session at 50% to 60% battery - we came in at 17% battery because of our very very high lapping pace on the lapping circuit
  • let's call it 15 laps maximum (probably 13-14) - down to 17% battery
  • no vehicle requires PCCB's for less than 20 or 30 laps for Porsche quality brakes
  • the Taycan can't run long enough to need PCCB's - even at a Porsche facility - you'll run out of battery before you'll run out of brakes
    • if that is NOT the case - if you are not running out of battery - well then you're not at full pace are you - which means you're using less brakes…which means cast iron will last that much longer
    • basically if you're driving hard enough to need PCCB's, you're also draining the battery at a ferocious pace, and also heating it up at a ferocious pace - and you will run out of _IT_ (battery) before you overwhelm the brakes
    • if you're not draining the battery at a ferocious pace, you're also not using the brakes all that much - so cast-iron will not overheat.

Pure and simple - Taycan lacks enough endurance to _NEED_ ceramics with the Battery's capacity and thermal limits being the major limiting factor

optioning PCCB"s on a Taycan is waste of money - I will not do it again. They are great brakes, but unnecessary on most gas cars, but gas cars actually do have enough endurance to tap out of cast-iron brake thermal capacity - but completely unnecessary with a heavy Regen EV that can't be on track long enough to matter in terms of braking capacity.

Taycan has about 15 min of full pace driving (and braking) before something will limit you (either power capacity or battery thermals) - no one needs PCCB's for 15 min or less of full pace driving - and factually that is what the Taycan can do. I ran out of power at PECLA in less than 15 laps and we had to retire the vehicle to literally recharge it. I'm down to 47% battery or less in less than 7 laps at laguna seca and battery temp has maxed at 132F chopping throttle capacity - 7 laps - this requires you to bring the vehicle in for both battery cooling and charging - cooling the brakes while it sits charging. You do not need PCCB's for 7 laps.

You do not need (or can even utilize) world class braking thermal endurance (PCCB's) in a vehicle that can't even run long enough for a traditional sprint race (20-25 min).

you will run out of the following things on track BEFORE you can overheat Porsche's cast iron brakes:

• Battery Thermal capacity
• Battery power
• Tire grip due to overheating the tires - heavy car + street tires = lost grip levels pretty quickly
• actual track session time (checkered flag at start/finish)
• driver fatigue unless you get paid to drive fast professionally

TLDR; the ChatGPT summary - ROFL

Summary of the Argument Against PCCB Brakes on the Porsche Taycan:

1. Porsche’s Cast Iron Brakes Are Outstanding
   • Porsche’s standard cast iron brakes are extremely well-engineered with excellent thermal management and fade resistance, especially given their brake cooling design.
2. Brake Fade is Not an Issue in Street Driving
   • Brake fade occurs only with prolonged, intense use (30+ minutes of full-pace track driving). This kind of stress is impossible to achieve in street or even spirited driving due to natural cooling and limited need for aggressive braking.
3. The Taycan Can't Push Brakes Hard Enough, Long Enough
   • The Taycan's battery limitations(both power and thermal capacity) mean it cannot stay at full track pace long enough to even begin to challenge the limits of its cast iron brakes:
     • After ~15 minutes of full-speed lapping, the battery overheats or depletes.
     • Regenerative braking handles most of the braking load anyway.
     • At high pace, tires also overheat and lose grip before brakes are stressed.
4. PCCB (Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes) Are Overkill
   • PCCBs have higher thermal endurance but are only useful when brakes are pushed continuously at very high speeds for long periods — a scenario the Taycan can't achieve due to battery constraints.
   • Thus, PCCBs are unnecessary and a waste of money on the Taycan.
5. Track Experience Supports the Conclusion
   • Even in controlled, aggressive track environments (e.g., PECLA, Laguna Seca), the Taycan hits battery and tire limits well before the cast iron brakes come close to fading.
   • Actual full-pace track time is too short (~15 min) to stress brakes; you’ll hit battery or tire limits first.
6. Final Verdict
   • You will never overheat the Taycan’s cast iron brakes before something else gives up.
   • Therefore, PCCBs offer no real-world benefit on the Taycan, whether for street or track use.

 

[Rik_CT4s]

TLDR; the ChatGPT summary - ROFL

Summary of the Argument Against PCCB Brakes on the Porsche Taycan:

1. Porsche’s Cast Iron Brakes Are Outstanding
   • Porsche’s standard cast iron brakes are extremely well-engineered with excellent thermal management and fade resistance, especially given their brake cooling design.
2. Brake Fade is Not an Issue in Street Driving
   • Brake fade occurs only with prolonged, intense use (30+ minutes of full-pace track driving). This kind of stress is impossible to achieve in street or even spirited driving due to natural cooling and limited need for aggressive braking.
3. The Taycan Can't Push Brakes Hard Enough, Long Enough
   • The Taycan's battery limitations(both power and thermal capacity) mean it cannot stay at full track pace long enough to even begin to challenge the limits of its cast iron brakes:
     • After ~15 minutes of full-speed lapping, the battery overheats or depletes.
     • Regenerative braking handles most of the braking load anyway.
     • At high pace, tires also overheat and lose grip before brakes are stressed.
4. PCCB (Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes) Are Overkill
   • PCCBs have higher thermal endurance but are only useful when brakes are pushed continuously at very high speeds for long periods — a scenario the Taycan can't achieve due to battery constraints.
   • Thus, PCCBs are unnecessary and a waste of money on the Taycan.
5. Track Experience Supports the Conclusion
   • Even in controlled, aggressive track environments (e.g., PECLA, Laguna Seca), the Taycan hits battery and tire limits well before the cast iron brakes come close to fading.
   • Actual full-pace track time is too short (~15 min) to stress brakes; you’ll hit battery or tire limits first.
6. Final Verdict
   • You will never overheat the Taycan’s cast iron brakes before something else gives up.
   • Therefore, PCCBs offer no real-world benefit on the Taycan, whether for street or track use.

Chat GPT counter argument:
With PCCB.

 

[Argo]

My 2 cents on this one.
The technical positives: PCCB are lighter (hence theoretical unsprung mass benefit), don't fade so much when very hot, (if you ever/can get to that point) and no brake (not break!) dust.
The negatives: most drivers will never notice or ever need the benefits (i.e weight, fade), and its a lot to pay for no dust!

For me I'm not tracking but I do take on some challenging mountain roads from time to time.
There is a difference between track use and enthusiastically descending a few 1000 vertical metres.
Descending is not battery constrained and I would suggest more acutely demanding on brakes than a sharp corner or two on a comparatively flat track. Lap after lap is maybe different but we are falling into semantics.

I've certainly got the PCCB's hot, and as a confidence booster it's nice to know you've got the best anchors available (in a heavy car). Would I see the deficit in "red" or "white" brakes, I really don't know. Perhaps my use case is a bit atypical.

I have the Porsche dealer change my wheels and tyres, I'm assuming they use the correct procedure, so I am not concerned about chipping the discs on a DIY wheel change.

So when Mallory was asked why he wanted to climb Everest, he replied "because its there" (not a happy ending I know) but if you asked me why do you need PCCB's well its kind of the same answer.

Oh and taste is a personal thing but I do like the look of the cheese graters and those big banana calipers.....

Sponsored