Porsche News changes in leadership

[chun]

Sure, marketing and finances might have failed Porsche by slowly pricing themselves our of the market. Perhaps "20% profit margin" was too high if a priority resulting in decisions like "we'd rather have 20% of a small pie, than 10% of an orders of magnitude large pie". However, I somehow doubt either of these guys were responsible for Porsche being unable to get the OTA software completed, even though the OTA hardware has been shipping since the very first Taycan. This alone is must have been a huge hit to the Porsche bottom line for Taycans, and will be for Macans and even latest ICE cars. I am not saying this would have been easy - OTA is hard, combined with Porsche's lack of vertical integration it would have been a mammoth task. But mammoth tasks are exactly the kind of thing that has to be driven hard all the way from the executive level.

If a chinese automaker can do a 100% in-house vertically integrated car from a name on a paper to a full shipping product in 1-2 years, VW/Audi/Porsche have no excuse.

It's lack of imitative, like you say, from executive level. It's what plagues germans in every industry. If something works, they simply refuse to improve or change.

Does porsche really not have resources to develop a chair control unit, a heating control system, and preatty much all those things? Those are just excuses...

Rivian, who VW/Porsche is trying to borrow their homework from, went from using 30+ ECUs in their revision 1 to 8 ECUs running proprietary code in 2 years and reduce elctrical wiring by some absurd number like 80% of the top of my head. Does Rivian really have more engineers than VW? It's lack of vision if nothing that german automakers are suffering from, same as any german tech product.

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[daveo4EV]

If a chinese automaker can do a 100% in-house vertically integrated car from a name on a paper to a full shipping product in 1-2 years, VW/Audi/Porsche have no excuse.

It's lack of imitative, like you say, from executive level. It's what plagues germans in every industry. If something works, they simply refuse to improve or change.

Does porsche really not have resources to develop a chair control unit, a heating control system, and preatty much all those things? Those are just excuses...

Rivian, who VW/Porsche is trying to borrow their homework from, went from using 30+ ECUs in their revision 1 to 8 ECUs running proprietary code in 2 years and reduce elctrical wiring by some absurd number like 80% of the top of my head. Does Rivian really have more engineers than VW? It's lack of vision if nothing that german automakers are suffering from, same as any german tech product.

Rivan ported their stuff to a Audi Q6 in 3 months - and VW was flabbergasted - they are soooo screwed.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-do-in-years-of-spending-billions-242729.html

the germans are being outmaneuvered in all dimensions

 

[Vercingetorix]

The Chinese have a huge technological advantage. No european even comes close. Just look at these H7 bulbs. 100,000 lumens!

 

[Mr.Smith]

Hmm.... so you posit that the trade restrictions banning China from buying the latest Nvidia chips were pointless, because the Chinese would have never bought those chips anyways as they are made by a non-Chinese company? All those parts that the Chinese companies are buying from the west, such electronics and computers, or avionics for their Comac planes, that's also just a made up stories, because the companies supplying those (think Boeing and Airbus) are not Chinese so they could not possibly compete? All those Teslas which have been selling in the Chinese market must mean Tesla is Chinese, right (and yes, their volume has dropped recently too, but they've still sold a ton of cars there in the last 5 years for example)?

Nice conspiracy on your part, but while there is government pressure in Chine to buy domestic, it's not different than similar pressures in the US or other countries. In the end, consumers want the best value (to them) products. The reason Porsche is selling less in China not because the Piech and Porsche families declined to pledge allegiance to the Chinese Communist Party. The simple fact of the matter is Chinese companies are have better product offerings, and the prestige of a Porsche badge does not offset the difference in the overall value to the consumer. This is also why the west is instilling massive trade barriers to keep the Chinese companies, such as car companies, from decimating the western carmakers. Yes, there is talk about Chinese government subsidizing their companies, but it's not like US government has not given tons of money to Tesla for example. Heck, there is a 100% tariff on China made Teslas, is that because the Chinese government subsidized Tesla in China at a higher level than US government?

Tesla is a very Chinese company. Musk can't stop trying to overthrow governments, but you have never, ever heard him say anything but positive things about China. Why do you think that is?


Their relationship with China is deliberately obfuscated, but part of what's known is that the money they make in China through Shanghai can't flow out of China. Also they get massive government support for any project they do.

Unless you have worked with The Party you will never understand how it works.
Their subsidies are not like the US. It includes concessions that the US or the EU can't do. I've been at the table and have seen it happen and it's not for free.
This is why it's not possible to compete unless you're part of the CCP apparatus.

To think Tesla is smarter than every single non Chinese OEM is silly.
Porsche has their faults for sure but we are not comparing apples to apples.

I've been in meetings with government and party officials that one can't comprehend unless it's seen. Something that would take a year of planning and paperwork in the EU or US, will get done in half a day in China. That's not for free and that doesn't mean just paying off people

 

[A.Mayor]

Tesla is a very Chinese company. Musk can't stop trying to overthrow governments, but you have never, ever heard him say anything but positive things about China. Why do you think that is?


Their relationship with China is deliberately obfuscated, but part of what's known is that the money they make in China through Shanghai can't flow out of China. Also they get massive government support for any project they do.

Unless you have worked with The Party you will never understand how it works.
Their subsidies are not like the US. It includes concessions that the US or the EU can't do. I've been at the table and have seen it happen and it's not for free.
This is why it's not possible to compete unless you're part of the CCP apparatus.

To think Tesla is smarter than every single non Chinese OEM is silly.
Porsche has their faults for sure but we are not comparing apples to apples.

I've been in meetings with government and party officials that one can't comprehend unless it's seen. Something that would take a year of planning and paperwork in the EU or US, will get done in half a day in China. That's not for free and that doesn't mean just paying off people

A few questions:

What kind of concessions are we talking about, can you provide a few examples?

In what capacity were you at the table; and what exactly is not for free?

What does being part of the CCP apparatus entails?

 

[whitex]

Rivan ported their stuff to a Audi Q6 in 3 months - and VW was flabbergasted - they are soooo screwed.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-do-in-years-of-spending-billions-242729.html

the germans are being outmaneuvered in all dimensions

Ok, let's not get carried away by the headline here. Rivian ported what Rivian spent years and billions developing to Audi A6 "drivable demonstrator". If VW had all the Rivian tech years ago, they wouldn't have years and spent billions of dollars porting it for a demo - they tried doing it from scratch to production - much more work than a demo too. So it's not an apples-to-apples fair comparison. It would be like saying Dyson spent millions trying to develop their own car, while Tesla can produce one in just days and for 20 grand.

 

[Mr.Smith]

A few questions:

What kind of concessions are we talking about, can you provide a few examples?

In what capacity were you at the table; and what exactly is not for free?

What does being part of the CCP apparatus entails?

Concessions like subsidized labor, land, tax and fee exemptions, laws and regulations that can be tossed out. Labor subsidies are a huge one and the labor laws are completely different than the US and EU.
Our factory doesn't close, employees don't go home. Our factory assistant manager goes home to see his family 1 day a month.
Do you think this can happen in Germany?

A friend of mine left GM to work in China at a large robot manufacturer start up.
They were having logistical problems getting parts into their factory. The local government built an airport for them in a few weeks.
Is that possible at a GM factory in Michigan?

CCP party members have a presence in the company. It's not just kick backs which are part of it, but it could be exchange of technology and expanding the global reach of China. If the Chinese government gives your company their blessing, you're set.
Of course there are rules like not bad mouthing the party.
When was the last time you've seen Jack Ma from Alibabas face? Because he opened his mouth he's gone and he's lucky to be alive.
That's how you know Musk is owned by China. It's the only time he keeps his mouth shut. He won't shut up about free speech but doesn't say anything about the country with no free speech.

 

[whitex]

That's how you know Musk is owned by China. It's the only time he keeps his mouth shut. He won't shut up about free speech but doesn't say anything about the country with no free speech.

When was the last time VWAG execs were talking badly about the Chinese government? If you cannot find recent examples, does that must mean VWAG execs are owned by China, just like Musk?

 

[Mr.Smith]

When was the last time VWAG execs were talking badly about the Chinese government? If you cannot find recent examples, that must mean VWAG execs are owned by China, just like Musk.

When was the last time VWAG executives said anything about any government or try to overthrow a country or go on Joe Rogan to speak negative about the US or get involved with every political system on earth? They don't, but Musk does. Musk promotes China, VWAG executives don't.

Does anyone even know the name of a VWAG executive?

There are 2 ways for car manufacturers to work in China. Joint venture or work for China.
Tesla is the only one that doesn't have a joint venture in China.

 

[whitex]

If a chinese automaker can do a 100% in-house vertically integrated car from a name on a paper to a full shipping product in 1-2 years, VW/Audi/Porsche have no excuse.

It's lack of imitative, like you say, from executive level. It's what plagues germans in every industry. If something works, they simply refuse to improve or change.

Does porsche really not have resources to develop a chair control unit, a heating control system, and preatty much all those things? Those are just excuses...

Rivian, who VW/Porsche is trying to borrow their homework from, went from using 30+ ECUs in their revision 1 to 8 ECUs running proprietary code in 2 years and reduce elctrical wiring by some absurd number like 80% of the top of my head. Does Rivian really have more engineers than VW? It's lack of vision if nothing that german automakers are suffering from, same as any german tech product.

There is a book by Clayton Christensen titles "The Innovator's Dilemma" which talks about why large, stablished companies, simply cannot innovate. I highly recommend it.

VWAG missed the boat. Herbert Diess should have read this book and VWAG should have bought a controlling interest in Rivian, Lucid, or Tesla, rather than trying to do it himself. The book would have told him why what he set out to do was nearly impossible.

On the positive side, Porsche is evidently learning. I heard from the techs at my Porsche service that Mavan EV has a reduced number of ECU's, as Porsche consolidated a number of functions into single ECU's.

 

[whitex]

When was the last time VWAG executives said anything about any government or try to overthrow a country or go on Joe Rogan to speak negative about the US or get involved with every political system on earth? They don't, but Musk does. Musk promotes China, VWAG executives don't.

Does anyone even know the name of a VWAG executive?

There are 2 ways for car manufacturers to work in China. Joint venture or work for China.
Tesla is the only one that doesn't have a joint venture in China.

I have no doubt Musk bites his tongue on Chinese government for business reasons - China is a large market. No different than he no longer criticizes Trump. Notice Elon says nothing about Trump's priorities of increasing fossil fuels usage vs. Teslas goals for sustainable transportation. It doesn't mean he's in the pocket of either - he just knows when to keep his mouth shut when it suits his goals. Criticizing China or Trump will not gain him anything other than a spotlight, which he can get by criticizing other things which don't directly affect his own goals. Make no mistake, Musk is currently with Trump to suit his own goals, as is Tesla's factory in Shanghai. I am still on the fence whether Musk working with Trump will result in any net benefit to the US. I'm hoping it will, as long as Musk doesn't just lend Trump's crazy agenda expertise in execution, but instead pursue some of his own idealistic goals like government efficiency, or even Mars colonization. For example, personally I think putting government spending on a blockchain, i.e. public, immutable ledger, is a great idea (and no, it doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with doge coin or any other crypto currency). And yes, I realize that this might significantly shake up government spending and the establishes system of politician leeches that has been living off of this, perhaps even cause a bunch of politicians to exit this career due to no longer being able to syphon large amounts of money, but overall maybe it will be a net benefit.

 

[jeffb]

This just smells like scape-goating someone for all the issues.

“all the bad products, all the production issues, all that is bad was because of them, and now that they are gone all will be good”

in an attempt to please shareholders and kick the can of issues down the road to the next people

as it is done all the time in the corporate world

Porsche’s problem is that they are not competitive in China, and new leadership won’t magically fix that

I think a part of this problem is that VW finance is too greedy on the implied interest rate in leases. I've heard numbers as high as 8.5%

 

[chun]

I think a part of this problem is that VW finance is too greedy on the implied interest rate in leases. I've heard numbers as high as 8.5%

In switzerland it's 1.9%, still 2x the amount polestar offers for example.

To lease a Macan 4s, base spec, it's 1.3k a month - they don't offer any incentives

To lease a Polestar 4, maxed out spec, it's 800 a month, before any incentives. Add all the incentives, 600 a month. Take a pre-configured one with 0km, still maxed out spec, and you're closer 500 a month. Hell, on one with 2000-6000km, you can get it at 400 a month.

These 2 cars have pretty similar performance, but the polestar has better tech, more luxurious interior, better audio system, and better preatty much everything.

So who in their right mind would pay close to 3x for an inferior car, on a lease deal? I guess fanboys wanting that badge... but how many SUV drivers really value that so much?

Their business model is fucked, they think they still offer more than other manufacturers and can afford to ask those exorbitant prices, but they don't offer more, they offer less.

 

[Wivenhoe]

Western companies flocked to China as they saw massive opportunities due the to the vast number of potential sales. Unfortunately it was all for short term gain as they trained and provided all the designs and research giving away intellectual rights thus saving the Chinese billions in development costs. They are now reaping the price for those short term gains as they cannot compete with the people they provided a massive start to.

I suspect Tesla has its unique status in China as Musk was clever enough to get something in return unlike all the other Western companies. He had something the Chinese wanted and a few years ago, no other company could provide. He realised building cars in China would eventually be much cheaper than the US or Europe and also be more competitive in the Chinese market. His dilemma must be that he can’t take the profit out but I have a feeling he has a way

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