Tesla Model S - the car that started it all…

[daveo4EV]

You do understand that this “data” suggests that Porsches average 1.75 problems per vehicle while Tesla averages 2.52, right?

2.52 is definitely higher than 1.75, but “slightly less than 2” vs “slightly more than 2” is hardly a catastrophic/significant difference.

JD Power is to be respected (?) for discovering a way to monetize (and sensationalize) data like this, but understanding the true meaning behind the information is the key.

Their methods have NOT kept up with automotive technology, and to @AutoX’s point, JD Power treats an OTA update the same as an HV battery failure when it comes to “problems”. That is obviously the wrong way to treat those issues, but if they didn’t, their reports would be far less compelling as automotive flash points...and more importantly, far less profitable.

JD powers counts "problems" not "impact" - their data is accurate, but hardly less useful that you've been lead to believe or most people believe.

the following statement stands on it's own and is neither pro/con - it's both…

Tesla's reputation is well deserved

there is ample data about what it is and isn't

My 2013 Model S P85, 2014 Model S P85D, 2016 Model X P90D, 2017 Model X P100D, 2018 Model 3 Performance, 2021-2023 3xModel Y's - all with over 300k+ combined milesL

never stranded me
had few if any problems, but initial build quality was not upto Porsche standards, but was close to Honda or Nissan in terms of quality - and most of the problem they did have were fixed with OTA update requiring no service visit or home visit

Tesla didn't make a less reliable car or less/more problematic car - but at the Mode S's price point it had more problem/issues that that market segment demanded (paint quality for example still sucks) - I would humbly suggest that the Model 3/Model Y is no worse than any other choice in it's price segment - and again there may be problems, but not all problems are "equal" - given how many Model Y's I see daily driving around - they can't possibly be any worse than anything else I see driving around on the road - Mazda, Kia, Honda, Nissan etc…none of these other choices are immune to problem…

_ALL_ of my Porsches have had more significant problems and are less reliable than my Tesla's - my Porsche's spend way more time in the shop than any of my Tesla's ever did

2008 911 4S
2012 911 GTS
2011 911 GT3
2010 911 GT3 Cupcar
2015 911 GT3 Cupcar
2018 911 GT3
2023 911 GT3 RS
2023 911 GT3
2021 Cayenne Turbo S eHybrid
2020 Taycan Turbo
2022 911 TurboS Cab
2024 Macan Turbo
2015 Boxster S

JD Power's counts "problems" encountered - not all problems are "equal" - but their stats do not reflect "impact" - it's a simple count

my Tesla's had some problems, but the impact was minor (time normally rarely money)
my Porsche's have fewer problems, but the problems I have tend to lead to large impacts (time & money)

I'll stand by my statement that most people bashing Tesla have no actual experience and are simply parroting what they've heard or sensational headline dat that lack nuance

my Porsche's all drive better than _ANY_ of my Tesla's - which is why I put up with them, they also have features/options Tesla's lack, and quality in dimension's Tesla doesn't care about (braking for example) - but they are more problematic - yet I still prefer them…

however the Model S is/was a benchmark car - and was vastly better than most sedans of it's time - and Tesla combine a set of features that was unheard of for any sedan - if you believe it doesn't matter you're simply ignoring the facts and falling back on "tesla's has bad quality" trope's simply demonstrates a lack of depth in analysis or thinking…the Model S shook automotive board rooms across the globe - and most competitors still can't quite match it…

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[69Mach390]

JD powers counts "problems" not "impact" - their data is accurate, but hardly less useful that you've been lead to believe or most people believe.

the following statement stands on it's own and is neither pro/con - it's both…

there is ample data about what it is and isn't

My 2013 Model S P85, 2014 Model S P85D, 2016 Model X P90D, 2017 Model X P100D, 2018 Model 3 Performance, 2021-2023 3xModel Y's - all with over 300k+ combined milesL

never stranded me
had few if any problems, but initial build quality was not upto Porsche standards, but was close to Honda or Nissan in terms of quality - and most of the problem they did have were fixed with OTA update requiring no service visit or home visit

Tesla didn't make a less reliable car or less/more problematic car - but at the Mode S's price point it had more problem/issues that that market segment demanded (paint quality for example still sucks) - I would humbly suggest that the Model 3/Model Y is no worse than any other choice in it's price segment - and again there may be problems, but not all problems are "equal" - given how many Model Y's I see daily driving around - they can't possibly be any worse than anything else I see driving around on the road - Mazda, Kia, Honda, Nissan etc…none of these other choices are immune to problem…

_ALL_ of my Porsches have had more significant problems and are less reliable than my Tesla's - my Porsche's spend way more time in the shop than any of my Tesla's ever did

2008 911 4S
2012 911 GTS
2011 911 GT3
2010 911 GT3 Cupcar
2015 911 GT3 Cupcar
2018 911 GT3
2023 911 GT3 RS
2023 911 GT3
2021 Cayenne Turbo S eHybrid
2020 Taycan Turbo
2022 911 TurboS Cab
2024 Macan Turbo
2015 Boxster S

JD Power's counts "problems" encountered - not all problems are "equal" - but their stats do not reflect "impact" - it's a simple count

my Tesla's had some problems, but the impact was minor (time normally rarely money)
my Porsche's have fewer problems, but the problems I have tend to lead to large impacts (time & money)

I'll stand by my statement that most people bashing Tesla have no actual experience and are simply parroting what they've heard or sensational headline dat that lack nuance

my Porsche's all drive better than _ANY_ of my Tesla's - which is why I put up with them, they also have features/options Tesla's lack, and quality in dimension's Tesla doesn't care about (braking for example) - but they are more problematic - yet I still prefer them…

however the Model S is/was a benchmark car - and was vastly better than most sedans of it's time - and Tesla combine a set of features that was unheard of for any sedan - if you believe it doesn't matter you're simply ignoring the facts and falling back on "tesla's has bad quality" trope's simply demonstrates a lack of depth in analysis or thinking…the Model S shook automotive board rooms across the globe - and most competitors still can't quite match it…

I’m glad you had a good Tesla experience and it sucks you’ve had a bad experience with Porsche.

What I don’t understand is how you are claiming we are “ignoring the facts,” when so far I’m the only person who actually posted factual data.

If Teslas are as reliable as you are stating then it will show up in the independent reliability data.

Fact- they have more problems.

Your opinion- those problems are less severe.

That may be true, but we don’t know. because that study doesn’t differentiate severity. So for now you can’t state it as
fact without some data to back it up. I’m sure there are other studies to point to though.

 

[Zcd1]

…that study doesn’t differentiate severity.

And THIS is why JD Power “data” often doesn’t tell the full/true story.

 

[whitex]

And THIS is why JD Power “data” often doesn’t tell the full/true story.

Full disclosure, I haven't filled out any Taycan JD Power surveys (I received a few) for the Taycan, primarily because I know it would not look great for the Taycan, and I feel sorry for Porsche. It's an amazing car to drive, a but of a pain to own if you need a reliable car. I tend to vote with my money. In a couple of years if Porsche gets their act together I will be ordering 2 Cayenne EVs (his and hers, probably coupe and suv), and if they don't. it will be some other pair of EVs.

 

[AutoX]

I’m glad you had a good Tesla experience and it sucks you’ve had a bad experience with Porsche.

What I don’t understand is how you are claiming we are “ignoring the facts,” when so far I’m the only person who actually posted factual data.

If Teslas are as reliable as you are stating then it will show up in the independent reliability data.

Fact- they have more problems.

Your opinion- those problems are less severe.

That may be true, but we don’t know. because that study doesn’t differentiate severity. So for now you can’t state it as
fact without some data to back it up. I’m sure there are other studies to point to though.

You can look at how many mechanical recalls and what percentages of vehicles they affect among different automakers.

Anecdotally, there are more rampant complaints of problems on the Taycan/MachE forum than on the Tesla forum.

 

[69Mach390]

And THIS is why JD Power “data” often doesn’t tell the full/true story.

I agree. I’ve stated that from the beginning.

But then post a study that you feel is more accurate that may show Tesla in a better light.

 

[69Mach390]

You can look at how many mechanical recalls and what percentages of vehicles they affect among different automakers.

Mechanical recalls definitely tell “a story,” but I wouldn’t necessarily equate that with reliability. Taking the car to the dealer because they replace a part voluntarily is different than something just breaking. Usually recalls are safety based, not necessarily reliability based.

But yes, recalls could be considered a part of the reliability equation.

Anecdotally, there are more rampant complaints of problems on the Taycan/MachE forum than on the Tesla forum.

For sure. Which is probably why outsiders tend to think the Tesla following is cult like.

Despite criticism for reliability and quality control……. Tesla consistently had the highest “owner satisfaction” in the industry.

 

[Zcd1]

spite criticism for reliability and quality control……. Tesla consistently had the highest “owner satisfaction” in the industry.

Among the highest, yes, and also among the highest customer retention percentage as well.

It seems that really happy Tesla owners piss off owners of other brands, which is ironic/hilarious/sad - take your pick.

 

[Zcd1]

…But then post a study that you feel is more accurate that may show Tesla in a better light.

No need - the customer loyalty and sales data is far more telling than any other “study” anyone could cite.

 

[69Mach390]

No need - the customer loyalty and sales data is far more telling than any other “study” anyone could cite.

Except that those things apparently don’t go hand in hand.

You would think that reliability would more negatively affect satisfaction yet it really doesn’t seem to with Tesla.

They did such a good job with marketing and creating a fun vehicle that the owners seem to look past the faults. Bravo to them for sure.

They aren’t the only brand to have acheived this though. Ferrari for example has one of the highest brand loyalty numbers on the industry, but they aren’t exactly reliable. Reliable for a super car? Sure, but put it through the same miles as a Toyota Corolla daily driven…….

 

[Zcd1]

You would think that reliability would more negatively affect satisfaction yet it really doesn’t seem to with Tesla.

Not sure whether you’re simply being deliberately obtuse or haven’t understood much of what’s been posted in this thread, but I’m done interacting with you about it.

Enjoy your Taycan.

 

[whitex]

They did such a good job with marketing and creating a fun vehicle that the owners seem to look past the faults. Bravo to them for sure.

After a decade of driving Teslas, and knowing people who have been driving Teslas, I think the phrase that most people seem to repeat is "it just works". Whether car enthusiasts, or people who couldn't tell a Hyundai from a Honda - maybe especially those people. The complaints are usually about changes in how things work ("they moved my button elsewhere", "they changed the font on the speedometer") or new bugs introduced but most often fixed quickly. Compare things like batteries catching on fire, and how Tesla handled the issue (2 weeks) vs. Chevy Bolt (2 years).

Perhaps reliability surveys should consider a way to incorporate remediation duration (how long before >80% of affected cars are fixed) together with number of fixes. A car which has only 1 issue, but that issue makes it undrivable, is much worse customer experience than a car with 10 issues, which are just annoying and fixed within a week each.

 

[daveo4EV]

the JD power data is largely pointless - pointing to it repeatedly is simply being obstinate and refusing to recognize it's a simplistic metric and simplistic conclusions that obscure the complexity of what they are trying to measure.

sure it's better to have fewer problem - but it's way better to fix the problems if you have them - and all cars have problems…

 

[daveo4EV]

no one can convince this was not a consequential car - it was far from perfect - but it charged things…the auto industry will never be the same - conversations about EV's will never be the same - and the legacy auto makes are still learning and recovering from the disruptions it caused…

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/ev-and-...tesla-model-model-x-officially-184700607.html

The Tesla Model S and Model X Are Officially Dead As of This Past Weekend

 

[69Mach390]

the JD power data is largely pointless - pointing to it repeatedly is simply being obstinate and refusing to recognize it's a simplistic metric and simplistic conclusions that obscure the complexity of what they are trying to measure.

sure it's better to have fewer problem - but it's way better to fix the problems if you have them - and all cars have problems…

I’ve said from the beginning that it’s a simplistic measurement of the number of problems.

But that is far from pointless. And the brands that are at the top of the JD power chart just so happen to be the same ones at the top of pretty much every independent reliability study. Same goes with the ones near the bottom.

This isn’t a coincidence.

You can’t just throw the data out because it’s a simple measurement, especially because it doesn’t happen to praise a car brand you like.

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