VW Group & Rivian announce Joint Venture. VW to use Rivian software starting second half of decade

[tigerbalm]

The software chaos will be the undoing of VW (if not a bit already). Not just the quality of "todays" software, but the constant change in future direction. Instead of striving to simplify, they are increasing the complexity of what they have to support.

Over the last 18 months we've heard variant of:

1. We're doubling down on CARIAD and the new vw.OS which will power every VW owned car brand.
2. We're hiring 5,000+ software engineers into CARIAD – that's how much we're committed. Someone still hasn't read The Mythical Man-Month book from 1975.
3. We're rolling out new Taycan with the existing QNX/Docker based PCM.
4. We're rolling out new Macan with brand new Android OS based PCM.
5. We're talking to Apple about the new CarPlay based experience.
6. We're talking to Apple about some vague potential new PCM based on their unreleased safetyOS platform.
7. We're talking to Google about moving to their new Automotive OS based platform – that is NOT the AndroidOS we just rolled out in Macan – but is based on the totally different OS used in Polestar.
8. We're going to use Rivian's OS in the future.

I don't swear too much here: but f**king hell VW/Porsche.

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[whitex]

The software chaos will be the undoing of VW (if not a bit already). Not just the quality of "todays" software, but the constant change in future direction. Instead of striving to simplify, they are increasing the complexity of what they have to support.

Over the last 18 months we've heard variant of:

1. We're doubling down on CARIAD and the new vw.OS which will power every VW owned car brand.
2. We're hiring 5,000+ software engineers into CARIAD – that's how much we're committed. Someone still hasn't read The Mythical Man-Month book from 1975.
3. We're rolling out new Taycan with the existing QNX/Docker based PCM.
4. We're rolling out new Macon with brand new Android OS based PCM.
5. We're talking to Apple about the new CarPlay based experience.
6. We're talking to Apple about some vague potential new PCM based on their unreleased safetyOS platform.
7. We're talking to Google about moving to their new Automotive OS based platform – that is NOT the AndroidOS we just rolled out in Macon – but is based on the totally different OS used in Polestar.
8. We're going to use Rivian's OS in the future.

I don't swear too much here: but f**king hell VW/Porsche.

You missed https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/202...vehicle-software-applied-intuition-35659.html

That said, I think VW and Porsche are not necessarily in lock-step with each other on their software plans, so mixing VW and Porsche plans may appear contradictory.

 

[simcity]

The software chaos will be the undoing of VW (if not a bit already). Not just the quality of "todays" software, but the constant change in future direction. Instead of striving to simplify, they are increasing the complexity of what they have to support.

Over the last 18 months we've heard variant of:

1. We're doubling down on CARIAD and the new vw.OS which will power every VW owned car brand.
2. We're hiring 5,000+ software engineers into CARIAD – that's how much we're committed. Someone still hasn't read The Mythical Man-Month book from 1975.
3. We're rolling out new Taycan with the existing QNX/Docker based PCM.
4. We're rolling out new Macon with brand new Android OS based PCM.
5. We're talking to Apple about the new CarPlay based experience.
6. We're talking to Apple about some vague potential new PCM based on their unreleased safetyOS platform.
7. We're talking to Google about moving to their new Automotive OS based platform – that is NOT the AndroidOS we just rolled out in Macon – but is based on the totally different OS used in Polestar.
8. We're going to use Rivian's OS in the future.

I don't swear too much here: but f**king hell VW/Porsche.

Just reeks of desperation. CARIAD has been a complete disaster.

 

[Brombaer1971]

Back in the days when VW announced their first plans with CARIAD I was highly sceptical. I mean huge companies trying to get fast outside of Expertise that isn‘t their core strength. Having worked as an outside contractor for several VW brands (supplying/developing/supporting software) and knowing the modus operandi of internal management structures (risk avoidance).

But whatever their plans are it always fails in decisions what features a carOS has other than just allowing a car to drive (well). I mean what the PCM currently allows the user to do, the combination with the Cloud portal, watch connection is mediocre at best (and that is really NOT rocket science, just a user Interface, some data, some Communication, some storage). And now switching to yet ANOTHER OS will not help that situation short and medium term. Probably long term, but that has to be seen. From announcement to successfull execution is a very long and hard road.

Don‘t get me wrong, I hope that plan works more than well.

 

[pedroleumjelly]

The software chaos will be the undoing of VW (if not a bit already). Not just the quality of "todays" software, but the constant change in future direction. Instead of striving to simplify, they are increasing the complexity of what they have to support.

Over the last 18 months we've heard variant of:

1. We're doubling down on CARIAD and the new vw.OS which will power every VW owned car brand.
2. We're hiring 5,000+ software engineers into CARIAD – that's how much we're committed. Someone still hasn't read The Mythical Man-Month book from 1975.
3. We're rolling out new Taycan with the existing QNX/Docker based PCM.
4. We're rolling out new Macan with brand new Android OS based PCM.
5. We're talking to Apple about the new CarPlay based experience.
6. We're talking to Apple about some vague potential new PCM based on their unreleased safetyOS platform.
7. We're talking to Google about moving to their new Automotive OS based platform – that is NOT the AndroidOS we just rolled out in Macan – but is based on the totally different OS used in Polestar.
8. We're going to use Rivian's OS in the future.

I don't swear too much here: but f**king hell VW/Porsche.

Each line item is some PM who's arguing with the other and trying to ship impact for their org. What a joke. I think this is a great example of corporate chucklefuckery hindering innovation. I would know, I'm in the middle of something similar where I work.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Rivian’s Lifeline Is a $5 Billion Gamble for Volkswagen - WSJ
(may be behind paywall)

A few relevant excerpts:
"Rivian’s problems are financial and operational: It has well-reviewed EVs but still loses money to make them, setting it on a road to ruin. Volkswagen is a master of scale manufacturing and still generates huge operating cash flows—the analyst consensus is for roughly $38 billion this year—but hasn’t nailed the complex software necessary to create cutting-edge EVs.

Overlay these two skill sets and you get a win-win situation, or that is the theory. The reality will depend partly on how well they work together in a proposed joint venture that neither side will control."

...

"The JV, to be run by co-chief executives supplied by each company, will focus on the so-called electrical architecture of EVs. This is the system that connects and controls vehicle electronics, increasingly via a “software stack” that can deliver over-the-air updates. Getting it right makes EVs smart as well as electric. The technology is tougher for old-school automakers than just replacing gas engines with batteries and motors because it requires a different kind of engineering.

Volkswagen EVs such as the ID.4 have been praised for their hardware but criticized for their infotainment system, particularly in China. Last year the company invested in Chinese EV maker Xpeng to get access to its software for the local market, and the Rivian deal follows a similar pattern."


....

" Volkswagen’s preference shares—the instrument that most institutional investors in Europe trade—were down 2% in midday trading Wednesday. That is despite a roughly 50% paper gain on half of its initial Rivian investment, which will convert into stock at a price based on levels before the deal was unveiled. Investors have been burned before by Volkswagen’s habit of throwing money at problems. "
(my note on this: )

"If partnerships with Rivian in the U.S. and Xpeng in China can deliver top-notch vehicles, it will be a win for Volkswagen. To turn that into a win for its investors, though, the German company will also need to limit software investments at home to avoid the usual waste and duplication. For a company with a big state shareholding and an unusually dominant union, that may be the harder part."

Tl;dr: we'll keep spending our way to a solution, but preferably abroad.

 

[snstevens]

I think a missing element of this discussion is System Architecture, and the person (not persons) who has the role of System Architect.

All great systems begin as the vision of a system architect who has the freedom, and wisdom based on years of similar experiences, to develop an overall product/system architecture that includes functionality, interface protocols, and dynamic behavior, and then uses that "system" architecture to drive consistency and guide the development of separate electrical, mechanical, and software architectures.

Today Porsche suffers in part because I don't believe there ever was an overall "system" architecture for our Taycans. There were probably three SAs, one for the mechanical systems, one for the electrical systems, and one or more for the SW, each operating somewhat independently. Sure, they passed around interface requirements, but none owned the entire system.

My hope is that at Rivian there was a single System Architect behind the original Rivian product, and that with the right decision making, whoever takes the System Architect role for the joint venture system will take up where the original architect left off to develop a truly great product. While the Porsche mechanical systems and drive performance is unbeatable, the slow and glitchy PCM electrical architecture and software architecture simply don't measure up.

Development of world-class system architectures hasn't happened often over my lifetime, but when it does the result is almost magical. Apple computers and iPhones with their elegant industrial design, bespoke hardware, and macOS & iOS are two great examples of this systems-based design approach.

Now I'm curious about something. Is it possible there was an elegant system architecture developed as part of Apple's Project Titan, and might that not be a place to start? I guess we'll never know.

 

[fullmetalbaal]

CarPlay is coming in software update for R1 25 MY vehicles. No specifics on Android Auto though. I keep checking for the update in my Rivian. Overall, I have been very pleased with the software experience.

Is there an official source for that? Or just a rumor? Not trying to be snarky, legitimately interested as I'm considering an R1T.

 

[whitex]

I think a missing element of this discussion is System Architecture, and the person (not persons) who has the role of System Architect.

All great systems begin as the vision of a system architect who has the freedom, and wisdom based on years of similar experiences, to develop an overall product/system architecture that includes functionality, interface protocols, and dynamic behavior, and then uses that "system" architecture to drive consistency and guide the development of separate electrical, mechanical, and software architectures.

Today Porsche suffers in part because I don't believe there ever was an overall "system" architecture for our Taycans. There were probably three SAs, one for the mechanical systems, one for the electrical systems, and one or more for the SW, each operating somewhat independently. Sure, they passed around interface requirements, but none owned the entire system.

My hope is that at Rivian there was a single System Architect behind the original Rivian product, and that with the right decision making, whoever takes the System Architect role for the joint venture system will take up where the original architect left off to develop a truly great product. While the Porsche mechanical systems and drive performance is unbeatable, the slow and glitchy PCM electrical architecture and software architecture simply don't measure up.

Development of world-class system architectures hasn't happened often over my lifetime, but when it does the result is almost magical. Apple computers and iPhones with their elegant industrial design, bespoke hardware, and macOS & iOS are two great examples of this systems-based design approach.

Now I'm curious about something. Is it possible there was an elegant system architecture developed as part of Apple's Project Titan, and might not be a place to start? I guess we'll never know.

Large companies will always do iterative, derivative products because that is the lowest risk for most revenue. One good example is all legacy automotive companies keeping the ignition switch, all blank slate EV designs ditched it. Another way to put it, legacy automakers try to fit a new type of car (EV) into their existing, tried and true architectures. This is why nobody moved to new tech buses (automotive Ethernet) or 48V supplies (less wires, less cost, less weight), until recently that is - once Tesla did it with the Cybertruck, everyone is suddenly in the rush to "me too". Benefits of 48V over 12V have been known for decades, they were not a secret from anyone, as were using a single bus to interconnect everything - it's just "not the way cars were being built" for decades, so nobody had the guts to change it.

For a large company, iterative designs are the cash cow to be milked, therefore they will receive most of the resources, most talented staff - all to keep the revenue coming. Innovation is risky business, even customers can be quite resistant to change, so no large company wants to rock the boat (their current revenue stream). Innovative projects get put on a backburner, never given much of a chance. Only time will tell whether VW will allow Rivian to take over their architecture, or will VW simply pick bits and pieces of Rivian software and wedge them into VW legacy architecture for iterative, incremental benefits. Sadly, I've seen the latter happen in tech industries a lot - an innovative startup gets acquired, their product killed and its bones picked for bits and pieces of technologies to enhance the legacy product of the acquirer. Sad.

 

[RAHRCR]

Elon still “ The boss”​

News doesn’t move the needle one way or another for Tesla.​

More and more of the world is beginning to see that a great EV and a Tesla are not the same thing.

 

[RamTwins]

Is there an official source for that? Or just a rumor? Not trying to be snarky, legitimately interested as I'm considering an R1T.

Rivian's software engineer holds tech chats with customers and that was one of the topics-a slow rollout of Carplay features. There is an article on 9To5Mac - Rivian's new R1 EVs offer Apple Wallet car key support, Apple Music with Spatial Audio - 9to5Mac that highlights some of it. If I can find the original video I'll share it. This applies to the MY25 R1's but it was highlighted backward compatibility with current Gen 1 vehicle might be possible.

 

[EXOTIC3]

More and more of the world is beginning to see that a great EV and a Tesla are not the same thing.

lol
Thx 4 the chuckle

 

[Rusty Griswald]

More and more of the world is beginning to see that a great EV and a Tesla are not the same thing.

I couldn’t disagree more with this take.

 

[RamTwins]

Rivian's software engineer holds tech chats with customers and that was one of the topics-a slow rollout of Carplay features. There is an article on 9To5Mac - Rivian's new R1 EVs offer Apple Wallet car key support, Apple Music with Spatial Audio - 9to5Mac that highlights some of it. If I can find the original video I'll share it. This applies to the MY25 R1's but it was highlighted backward compatibility with current Gen 1 vehicle might be possible.

Update: This update, which was made available today, only contains a few components of CarPlay and not the full blown version. In fact, it sounds like that is not likely to happen. What we now have is: Apple Music, Sri voice commands (or Google/Alexa if you prefer), and phone as key access via apple watch (which was already there in a round about kind of way now more closely integrated).

 

[iamai]

Is there an official source for that? Or just a rumor? Not trying to be snarky, legitimately interested as I'm considering an R1T.

Source-- a Rivian Forum perhaps?
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/threads/poll-should-rivian-offer-apple-carplay.29383/

There is Apple Music now as a new music source on a Rivian Gen 2 and maybe on Gen 1, but connectivity will not be free anymore.
However, one thing i disliked about Rivian infotainment is that they still have not released a music playback from USB as a source. What a simple thing to do. They already allow video from 5 cameras to record 5 separate streams onto USB storage, but not to play silly media files.

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