Best electricity tariff for EV switching today

[BigBob]

Yes, CS is poor and night/ day compared to Octopus. Forewarned is forearmed if considering OVO. On balance the switch is worth it in my opinion and for my circumstances ( eg kw useage)/ rate octopus were offering currently)

Yep. 8 weeks+ with no response to my complaints. So letter to ombudsman this week. Waste of everyones time.

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[Nickj]

Yep. 8 weeks+ with no response to my complaints. So letter to ombudsman this week. Waste of everyones time.

Hmm, ok that must be super annoying! My gripes are minor so living with it so far. They haven’t sent the final bill reading after 5 weeks so can’t close my octopus account and get my £700 credit balance back, but not end of the world. I have called CS to query my unit rate credit but each time the response/ poor understanding I get by the ( I’m presuming) foreign call centre means I don’t even bother asking! No email address either !

 

[BigBob]

Hmm, ok that must be super annoying! My gripes are minor so living with it so far. They haven’t sent the final bill reading after 5 weeks so can’t close my octopus account and get my £700 credit balance back, but not end of the world. I have called CS to query my unit rate credit but each time the response/ poor understanding I get by the ( I’m presuming) foreign call centre means I don’t even bother asking! No email address either !

Here you go:
[email protected]
[email protected]

They don't seem to answer either though. Bit like their WhatsApp.

 

[R Benny Waered]

No one answered as no one know. If you set the app to ‘Chargenow’ this would be charging at peak rate so I guess counter productive. FAQ says not compatible as if solar feeding it can’t work out the rates, and I’d guess a could lead to a diminished credit. Give it a go and let us know what happens!

I will trailblaze once the panels are in! I know it will be a manual affair but hopefully setting charger to solar charge once we have min 6 amps and Anytime to Charge Now will work? Anytime doesn't talk with the EVSE does it - it manages charging by sending profiles to the car and enabling charging via the car when it deems fit?

 

[Jonttt]

I don't have solar so no real idea how it works other than assumed when actually using solar energy your actual electricity meter does not record any Kwh useage. If so then I'm not sure what the problem is with letting the OVO anytime app continue to control your charging ? ie if you either set it to "charge now" at none discount rate or allow it to schedule a charge at discount rate, if your actually using solar power and your meter is not recording any billable kwh useage then whats the problem. Is that not win win (and why OVO don't allow it) ie you use no KWH via your meter but get a credit for the KWH used to charge your car ?
I'm obviously missing something here..........

ps 6 weeks in and my OVO anytime charging has worked perfectly every time I've used it. It surprises me how often I plug it in at say 6pm for a 100% charge by 7am the following morning and it will do a large part of the charging before 10pm and then the rest after midnight. I would have thought it would just do its normal quick charge to establish charge rate possible and then all as late as possible off what I would consider peak. When its charging mine at 6-8pm surely that is peak ?

Also why don't people charge to 100% when at home on AC supply. Its only DC (fast) chargers you have to be careful charging to 100%.

 

[tchavei]

Also why don't people charge to 100% when at home on AC supply. Its only DC (fast) chargers you have to be careful charging to 100%.

Since when are electrons any different depending on source? They all end inside the battery and you don't want to charge to 100% to keep battery deterioration at a minimum.

Charging to 85% on a DC 11Kw charger would be just as charging to 85% on a 11kw ac charger. Only diference is that you wouldn't need converting AC into DC on the latter.

 

[Jonttt]

I'm no physicist but have been told multiple times by people who know much more about these things than me that 100% on a home charger is fine, its DC fast chargers (ie much faster than 22kwh) than you should not use to charge to 100% constantly. When I asked for my situation ie 95% home charger (or work but same thing in terms of charge rate) and 5% fast DC charging when on longer busienss trips I was told that would be fine at 100% all of the time. Its majority fast charging to 100% that can cause problems.
ps I've never had a problem with my hybrids charging to 100% at home for the past 7 years. Each did plenty of miles and had the same range etc... the day they went as when I got them.

 

[tchavei]

Well I'm not going to enter the debate of 100% or not 100% (or maybe I will).

What made me reply to the above message is that AC/DC doesn't matter (it's just electrons) but charging rate does. I've been involved with lithium batteries for over a decade (not professionally though) and rule of thumb always has been: charging at a rate that is below the capacity of the battery, it's slow/medium/<insert favourite expression> charging. Anything at or above the full battery capacity is fast/ultra fast / hyper fast charging and will degrade the battery at a higher rate.

So if we have a 93Kwh battery, charging it at a rate under 93Kw (< 1C), it's gonna hurt the pack much less than charging it at 270Kw (3C).

There's actually a reason that the limit engineers defined is 270Kw... it's precisely 3 times the battery capacity.

What I've been seeing on this forum is the misconception that "DC charging is bad"... the rate certainly is... not the technology behind it. I have two chargers about 300m from my house. Left one is 22Kw AC, the right side one 25Kw DC... they will harm the battery exactly the same regardless of AC/DC

Now to the 100% + charging rate subject: The most simplest way to look at it is:

Imagine your battery is a big sack made out of cloth ok? Now imagine it has a capacity to store 93 stones. You can remove and put pack in whatever stones you wish (except removing them all because the sack will collapse forever nor overfilling it or it will burst - 100 stones), at the pace you desire but... every time you're handling those stones, you're going to strain that cloth and wear it out. How much? Well that depends... are you putting the stones in it slowly and carefully? or are you throwing them in like no tomorrow? Same with the "output"... are you taking out a stone at a time or just dumping them out? And finally... will the cloth handle the abuse better when there are 70 stones inside or filled to the brim with 93 stones?

That's our HV battery....

 

[Porsche-Guru]

Well I'm not going to enter the debate of 100% or not 100% (or maybe I will).

What made me reply to the above message is that AC/DC doesn't matter (it's just electrons) but charging rate does. I've been involved with lithium batteries for over a decade (not professionally though) and rule of thumb always has been: charging at a rate that is below the capacity of the battery, it's slow/medium/<insert favourite expression> charging. Anything at or above the full battery capacity is fast/ultra fast / hyper fast charging and will degrade the battery at a higher rate.

So if we have a 93Kwh battery, charging it at a rate under 93Kw (< 1C), it's gonna hurt the pack much less than charging it at 270Kw (3C).

There's actually a reason that the limit engineers defined is 270Kw... it's precisely 3 times the battery capacity.

What I've been seeing on this forum is the misconception that "DC charging is bad"... the rate certainly is... not the technology behind it. I have two chargers about 300m from my house. Left one is 22Kw AC, the right side one 25Kw DC... they will harm the battery exactly the same regardless of AC/DC

Now to the 100% + charging rate subject: The most simplest way to look at it is:

Imagine your battery is a big sack made out of cloth ok? Now imagine it has a capacity to store 93 stones. You can remove and put pack in whatever stones you wish (except removing them all because the sack will collapse forever nor overfilling it or it will burst - 100 stones), at the pace you desire but... every time you're handling those stones, you're going to strain that cloth and wear it out. How much? Well that depends... are you putting the stones in it slowly and carefully? or are you throwing them in like no tomorrow? Same with the "output"... are you taking out a stone at a time or just dumping them out? And finally... will the cloth handle the abuse better when there are 70 stones inside or filled to the brim with 93 stones?

That's our HV battery....

The stone/ sack example is quite a good one !

100% agree… AC/DC doesn’t really matter…. it’s the rate of charge that will decide the longevity of the battery.

I think the misconception of AC/DC exists because AC charging (as available today in most homes) is inherently a lot slower than public DC Chargers…. so a view about DC being bad builds up…

 

[tchavei]

The stone/ sack example is quite a good one !

100% agree… AC/DC doesn’t really matter…. it’s the rate of charge that will decide the longevity of the battery.

I think the misconception of AC/DC exists because AC charging (as available today in most homes) is inherently a lot slower than public DC Chargers…. so a view about DC being bad builds up…

Actually I think it was great the subject came up because suddenly it made sense. I mean why the pb+ can be charged at 270kw (3C) and the smaller battery (73kwh) only at 220Kwish (3C)

Thats 99.99% the limitation the cell manufacturer imposed. "Never ever charge at over 3C or bad things will happen"

This also means, we won't see any charging rate increase in our cars unless a) chemistry changes in the future or b) the battery manufacturer lifts the 3C limit.

It's funny how suddenly I can relate to decade old terms of 0.1C, 0.5C, 1C charging and it perfectly fitting what we' re seeing in the Taycan.

Of course back in my days, 1C was already bad. Nowadays it's 3C I guess.

 

[Shigura]

Does the act of connecting/disconnecting the charging cable have a bearing on the gain or loss of LTE connectivity?
A few days ago I successfully charged the car to a target of 80% using the OVO C.A. app ending with a charge of 81%. For the next few days My Porsche app continued to show a level of 81% in spite of the car being used because the car had lost connectivity. On Monday I had to recharge the car from 58% to 85% using full price electricity since the car had no LTE connection. I visited my dealer who confirmed a loss of LTE that could not be remedied with a quick fix, so I booked the car in for later work. With the car at 47% charge ( still showing as 81% on MP app ) I planned a 5 hour dumb charge from midnight to 5 am that I calculated would take me to target of 85%. Shortly after connection I noticed the MP app registering a charge of 47% indicating a connection with the car. An inspection of the OVO C.A. app indicated that a scheduled charge to 85% was underway and the car would be ready at the programmed 7 am. Shortly before 5 am the MP app showed a charge of 75% and no connection with the car. At 5 am the car did not stop charging but continued until about 5:02 am when with the OVO C.A. app still working charging stopped. On unlocking the car it showed a charge of 85% and LTE was operational. the connection/disconnection of the cable would appear to coincide with the availability of LTE. Is this just a coincidence ?
I had a disturbed night !

 

[Speuk]

Does the act of connecting/disconnecting the charging cable have a bearing on the gain or loss of LTE connectivity?
A few days ago I successfully charged the car to a target of 80% using the OVO C.A. app ending with a charge of 81%. For the next few days My Porsche app continued to show a level of 81% in spite of the car being used because the car had lost connectivity. On Monday I had to recharge the car from 58% to 85% using full price electricity since the car had no LTE connection. I visited my dealer who confirmed a loss of LTE that could not be remedied with a quick fix, so I booked the car in for later work. With the car at 47% charge ( still showing as 81% on MP app ) I planned a 5 hour dumb charge from midnight to 5 am that I calculated would take me to target of 85%. Shortly after connection I noticed the MP app registering a charge of 47% indicating a connection with the car. An inspection of the OVO C.A. app indicated that a scheduled charge to 85% was underway and the car would be ready at the programmed 7 am. Shortly before 5 am the MP app showed a charge of 75% and no connection with the car. At 5 am the car did not stop charging but continued until about 5:02 am when with the OVO C.A. app still working charging stopped. On unlocking the car it showed a charge of 85% and LTE was operational. the connection/disconnection of the cable would appear to coincide with the availability of LTE. Is this just a coincidence ?
I had a disturbed night !

I think it is just coincidence. Kaluza users are noticing the loss of LTE because they rely on it for charging at a discounted rate. Others maybe not so much if they set timers and profiles in the car or have a recurring timer set in the car or by the Porsche App.

 

[Shigura]

I think it is just coincidence. Kaluza users are noticing the loss of LTE because they rely on it for charging at a discounted rate. Others maybe not so much if they set timers and profiles in the car or have a recurring timer set in the car or by the Porsche App.

A fair comment that had occurred to me. However it is worth keeping in mind.

 

[satchurator]

I'm no physicist but have been told multiple times by people who know much more about these things than me that 100% on a home charger is fine, its DC fast chargers (ie much faster than 22kwh) than you should not use to charge to 100% constantly. When I asked for my situation ie 95% home charger (or work but same thing in terms of charge rate) and 5% fast DC charging when on longer busienss trips I was told that would be fine at 100% all of the time. Its majority fast charging to 100% that can cause problems.
ps I've never had a problem with my hybrids charging to 100% at home for the past 7 years. Each did plenty of miles and had the same range etc... the day they went as when I got them.

This is bad information. This conflates two distinct issues - 1) lots of very high power fast DC charging can degrade the HV battery, and 2) maintaining charge above 80/85% for extended periods of time can degrade also.

It is not the case that charging 'gently' to 100% via L1/L2 AC charging gets you off the hook for #2.

PS. Please let's not have the 100% debate all over again.

 

[Jonttt]

Well I'm not going to enter the debate of 100% or not 100% (or maybe I will).

What made me reply to the above message is that AC/DC doesn't matter (it's just electrons) but charging rate does. I've been involved with lithium batteries for over a decade (not professionally though) and rule of thumb always has been: charging at a rate that is below the capacity of the battery, it's slow/medium/<insert favourite expression> charging. Anything at or above the full battery capacity is fast/ultra fast / hyper fast charging and will degrade the battery at a higher rate.

So if we have a 93Kwh battery, charging it at a rate under 93Kw (< 1C), it's gonna hurt the pack much less than charging it at 270Kw (3C).

There's actually a reason that the limit engineers defined is 270Kw... it's precisely 3 times the battery capacity.

What I've been seeing on this forum is the misconception that "DC charging is bad"... the rate certainly is... not the technology behind it. I have two chargers about 300m from my house. Left one is 22Kw AC, the right side one 25Kw DC... they will harm the battery exactly the same regardless of AC/DC

Now to the 100% + charging rate subject: The most simplest way to look at it is:

Imagine your battery is a big sack made out of cloth ok? Now imagine it has a capacity to store 93 stones. You can remove and put pack in whatever stones you wish (except removing them all because the sack will collapse forever nor overfilling it or it will burst - 100 stones), at the pace you desire but... every time you're handling those stones, you're going to strain that cloth and wear it out. How much? Well that depends... are you putting the stones in it slowly and carefully? or are you throwing them in like no tomorrow? Same with the "output"... are you taking out a stone at a time or just dumping them out? And finally... will the cloth handle the abuse better when there are 70 stones inside or filled to the brim with 93 stones?

That's our HV battery....

I agree with this totally in my none expert but logical way ;-)

it follows that the generic AC v DC is not the actual differentialtor as I stated but rather the actual charge rate used, with AC v DC being too generic in that regard, thank you for clarifying logically ;-)

I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that 100% battery charge is not actually 100% battery ie my battery is c95kw but "useable" 100% charge is less than this 85kw (sorry can't remember the exact numbers) ie Porsche have built in the tolerances that you refer to in your analogy so that the bag is never actually full even at 100% charge, hence why 100% charge at "slower" charge rates is fine. Thats how it was explained to me.

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