GM follows Ford with NACS Tesla charge port adoption -- time to ditch CCS1 (at least the physcial design)

[daveo4EV]

No EV manufacturer in Europe has or needs a contract with Tesla for their customers to be able charging at Tesla Superchargers in Europe.

but the access is subject to Tesla's control - the entire network is not accessable at this time…

while the plug is the same - access is still subject to Tesla's discretion - in the UK in particluar it's not fully open…that's true of any charging vendor anywhere- none of he other vendor's choose to enforce this option - the only authorization required is payment.

https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging#future-sites​

Will more sites open to non-Tesla vehicles?

We’re starting with a select number of sites so that we can review the experience, monitor congestion and assess feedback before expanding. Future sites will only be opened to non-Tesla vehicles if there is available capacity.​

according to Tesla only some of their sites allow non-Tesla's - not the entire network…they could do that - but so far they have not and are not required to do so.​

Tesla owns the network - they don't have to provide access…and my Local Porsche dealer in Monterey won't let me use their CCS charger - I'm not authorzied - even though it has the correct plug - NOTE: in conversations with them they are having reliability problems with the charger and it spends most of it's time offline/non-functional since installation and it's proving ineffective for their private service/new-car delivery needs…

GM and Ford apparently "convinced" Tesla to grant them access to the entire network in North America…Tesla owning the network in North America has been less than motivated to open it to other vendors with out appropriate incentives - apparently GM/Ford felt they had no choice given their experience with the "open" CCS network providers in North America.

my understanding of the Euro regulation is compatibility is assured (plug & charging protocol) - but access is not mandatory and can be restricted by the charging vendor for any reason (business or otherwise)- and to date is restricted by Tesla - Tesla as an operating business has decided to grant access to some but not their entire network in europe "yet"…eventually they may provide access to all locations unrestricted - but that day is not today.

but it matter's less in Europe because the other networks seem to be run more competently than the one's here in the US - so Tesla does not have the freedom to restrict access to only their customers.

for what ever and many reasons that is not the case in North America - and the non-Tesla charging vendors are simply not providing a competitive alternative. Tesla apparently is the only charging vendor that provides a reliable service. So they have market advantage…

Nothing I'm aware of prevents EVGo/Chargepoint/Electrify America from providing reliable service - but they've had several years to do so and to date the record is less than stellar. So we're stuck with having to negotiate with Tesla.

In the greater Seattle area there are 133 CCS charging sites - but less than 20 of those sites offer any reliable charging performance above 70 kW based on plug share reliability data - and of the sites that are reliable there are fewer than 25 actual CCS stalls functional for a metro area of greater than 3 million people…

Tesla's supercharger network in the same region by contrast offers 17 sites with over 150 stalls and each site has a nearly perfect 10 reliability rating in plugshare…

what's CCS 1 based EV vendor in North America to do?

in the US as of this posting's date 12 sites are open to non-Tesla customers in North America - no negotiation required (2 in california and 10 in greater New York area) - the adapter is provided "on stie"…so any CCS vehicle can simply arrive & charge if they need to charge at those 12 sites - Tesla I would assume plans to extend this to more sites in North America…but that is hardly a plan for other vendor's to rely on for their customer's road tripping needs…

Ford and GM decided they needed the entire network for their customers - not just bits and pieces of it. So they engaged Tesla to provide complete access for their entire fleet of CCS vehicle's. This will be a competitive advantage for them in North America vs. any CCS 1 EV vendor that choose to avoid similar engagement with Tesla.

I welcome correction if I'm wrong.

Sponsored

 

[Scandinavian]

but it matter's less in Europe because the other networks seem to be run more competently than the one's here in the US - so Tesla does not have the freedom to restrict access to only their customers.

This is the main issue!! There has to be a thorough independent review of the reliability and operation of the networks. There is something fundamentally different in Europe vs USA. It would be interesting to hear any comments from EA, EVbox, Chargepoint etc how they view the situation and how they intend to respond.

I have been successfully charging at 100 + Ionity, Fastned, EnBW, Pulse, Tesla, Circle K networks during many European trips. And with the expected power levels up to 265 kW observed. YES there have been a few stations that have had troubles and a number of administrative issues (PCS not recognised). And some problems when Thunderstorms have knocked out the grid plus all communications, mobile as well as fixed. But in general these networks and their customer services really care and try to help out.

The Charging equipment vendors are mainly the same
Electricity is the same bar 50 Hz vs 60Hz
Cables are likely the same with cooling etc.
Plugs are similar but not exactly the same.

And there also seems such a huge difference in experience from members in the US. Some have consistent bad experiences while others have very little trouble??

Operating and supervising a network of chargers can not be any difference to operating a reliable cellular network. No customers would accept a cellular network being out of capacity or down for more than a very short time?

Maybe this also is different in the US?

 

[daveo4EV]

This is the main issue!! There has to be a thorough independent review of the reliability and operation of the networks. There is something fundamentally different in Europe vs USA. It would be interesting to hear any comments from EA, EVbox, Chargepoint etc how they view the situation and how they intend to respond.

I have been successfully charging at 100 + Ionity, Fastned, EnBW, Pulse, Tesla, Circle K networks during many European trips. And with the expected power levels up to 265 kW observed. YES there have been a few stations that have had troubles and a number of administrative issues (PCS not recognised). And some problems when Thunderstorms have knocked out the grid plus all communications, mobile as well as fixed. But in general these networks and their customer services really care and try to help out.

The Charging equipment vendors are mainly the same
Electricity is the same bar 50 Hz vs 60Hz
Cables are likely the same with cooling etc.
Plugs are similar but not exactly the same.

And there also seems such a huge difference in experience from members in the US. Some have consistent bad experiences while others have very little trouble??

Operating and supervising a network of chargers can not be any difference to operating a reliable cellular network. No customers would accept a cellular network being out of capacity or down for more than a very short time?

Maybe this also is different in the US?

this "problem" is 100% on the North American CCS 1 charging vendors - if EA worked and worked well (along with others) Tesla would not have the upper hand here…and this entire thread would never occur - and Tesla would be considering adding CCS 1 to it's vehicle's in North America -but it has a CCS 1 adapter so Tesla can use EA if they can get it to work.

NOTE: to Porsche - why does my Son/Daughter's Model Y w/Adatper take only 10 seconds to start a charging session at a functional EA charging station but my Taycan take's well over 45-90 seconds? (measuring start time from when I "start" the session in the EA app after plugging in and letting it negotiate) at the same exact station? Things to ponder - Tesla with an adapter works better at a functional EA station than my 2020 Porsche Taycan with native CCS 1 support.

again it speak's VOLUMES that Ford and GM felt this was necessary…they aren't doing it for the fun of it…I mean it's clear Elon is a great person to work with and lots of stories about how reasonable he is and level headed and not the least bit vindictive or implusive - yeah Ford and GM didn't have to do this - it's just something fun they choose to do last Saturday while they were bored at their 100% functional CCS stations…

that being said I still hate the ergonomic's of the CCS 1 plug design - that needed to die, but would never happen with out this sort of disruption.

 

[Kellster]

The connector is irrelevant. The cable on the Tesla chargers cannot reach the Taycan charging port. The Tesla chargers and the Tesla vehicles are designed for the Tesla to back in and then plug in at the rear quarter panel. I tried to reach a charger and had to parallel park across three chargers. Still the cable would barely reach.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

And there also seems such a huge difference in experience from members in the US. Some have consistent bad experiences while others have very little trouble??

Operating and supervising a network of chargers can not be any difference to operating a reliable cellular network. …
Maybe this also is different in the US?

The key words are “cost” and “density”.

From what I gather, electricity is frightfully expensive over yonder, whereas it’s about 10c/kWh over here. EA charges 45ish c for a fast DC kWh - but that’s for the few people who don’t get that for free (VW/VAG, BMW, others).
On the other side, charging stations are full-blown, network-connected computers on top of whatever hardware stuff makes the zap go - can’t compare that with passive(ish) cell towers, it’s hard to make a reliable distributed service and it requires specialized people to service it. (This is where the density, or lack thereof, bites.)

Put together, EA is probably running at a loss, and has a finite runway from the initial funding. Every single incident costs them serious money - I am certain of that. I don’t know what is their main cause of incidents, but it’s very likely software related and that’s a slow ship to turn.

Wrt differences of experience - we’ve argued this before, and there are two main lines of thinking:
- issues are caused by usage, so high density areas see more incidents
- issues are trivial but require manual intervention, so low density areas get longer time-to-mitigation
(It’s probably a bit of both)

By way of anecdotal evidence, my local ski hill has a 4-plug charging station (max 7ish kW per), which is free. Two of the plugs have been inoperable for at least the past half year, with the station showing a “an operator is on their way” message. The station is in a mountain pass, 30 miles from any civilization outpost. What possible incentive could anyone have to actually get on their way to fix the damn thing? It gets minimal traffic in the summer, and more functional ports would cost them more money in the winter.

For Tesla, the network was a sunk cost to entice people to buy their cars. For EA, it was just a sunk cost, because the court order said so. Ford became king makers, and GM had no choice but to drive the final nail.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Just give me a few more fast chargers, one in Concrete or Marblemount, one in Winthrop, one in Chelan, and one in Skykomish, and I would really enjoy my time on the Cascade Loop. As it is today, I have to plan very carefully and sometimes use a L2 charger (pain in the ass).

I think it’s coming - there are planned EVGo stations in Newhalem and Twisp. There is fast charging in Leavenworth and also further South on I90. But for the time being, going over WA pass while electrified requires a full charge in Mt Vernon (beginning of SR20) and an overnight stay in Winthrop. (And the thing is, even Tesla people don’t have it any better..)

Luckily we have lots of campgrounds with 14-50 plugs in that area..

 

[Scandinavian]

On the other side, charging stations are full-blown, network-connected computers on top of whatever hardware stuff makes the zap go - can’t compare that with passive(ish) cell towers, it’s hard to make a reliable distributed service and it requires specialized people to service it. (This is where the density, or lack thereof, bites.)

Still no differenice in supervision. A cell tower for 5G is not exactly passive. There is a lot of processing happening, high data rates and capacity management etc. And voice calls need to be handed over to the next suitable and available cell tower without any interruption or loss of quality. That requires an hell,of a lot of computing power and connectivity.

And any repair on site requires persons that know what they are doing.

On the other side, charging stations are full-blown, network-connected computers on top of whatever hardware stuff makes the zap go - can’t compare that with passive(ish) cell towers, it’s hard to make a reliable distributed service and it requires specialized people to service it. (This is where the density, or lack thereof, bites.)

No difference apart from that now there has to be some ways of directing a lot of power through certain switches and relays. Thereafter it is the cars BMS that determines the power that it can take.

And yes these chargers certainly are well connected to a central site and can be easily monitored.
If you ever find a video online about the information that the likes of KemPower can access from their chargers, you will see they have great information about sessions and probably faults. They even make some of the data available for the user when he is charging about the session. With suitable SW I guess KemPower can find potential issues coming up on their chargers before they break down.

I did not reflect on any slow chargers in extremely remote areas and can understand issues in maintaining those.

BUT HPC stations along major roads in any country, there is no excuse for not quickly reacting and repairing them. The network operator probably knows the problems before the EV driver tries to charge.

How long ago was it that you pulled up to a petrol pump and it was out of order? Running out of fuel can happen, but it must be more than 20 years since I had a pump that looked to work, only to find out it was broken.

It surely mostly just is an operational issue for EA etc.

Hopefully we will be able to keep the great uptime on the Ionity stations and other serious operators here in Europe gor a long time.

 

[satchurator]

All of this to say that when I have heard this news from Ford and GM, I told myself it's game over for CCS in the US. That's sad but the reality, you cannot fight the future sheer number of cars with a NACS plug. It will be a steamroller, that's it.

Also, the Tesla CCS magic box for the Tesla chargers is clearly dead in the water, as there is now no incentive for Tesla to deploy that massively ... or just do the minimum deployment to get the government subsidies and that's it. It will also disappear.

I really think the US government has missed the point at the beginning and should have **imposed** one standard and only one from the start. Now we are all kind of paying the price...

BTW for current Taycan owners like us, this is clearly no a total dead end (there will be some adapters NACS/CCS - EA may improve a bit, but seriously don't expect much) but all those CCS cars will take quite a hit on their value when the NACS cars from Ford and GM will be released in volume and when they go on the used car market. Same as CHAdeMO I guess.

The Whitehouse on Friday commented that federal incentives would only be available if Tesla supported CCS, so perhaps MagicDock will continue to roll out. In reaction on Twitter, Musk implied an openness to adapters.

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/06/09...-federal-dollars-as-long-as-they-include-ccs/

 

[satchurator]

I maintain that these developments are still good news for us with our CCS equipped Taycans. This is a massive, massive kick in the nuts for Electrify America - because it wouldn’t have happened were it not for their shortcomings. It is a good thing that Giovanni Palazzo is out as CEO. A lot of the discussion here seems to be predicated on the assumption that EA will continue to suck. I have optimism that this more than ever will focus EA on improving reliability. That, and suing Signet for their part in that shitshow.

When NACS wasn’t an open standard, there was no other rational option for EA other than CCS. Now, there is nothing to stop EA from adopting NACS should the market dynamics make it worthwhile. We don’t want a world where Musk has a monopoly on US EV charging.

 

[EVmaniak]

Let's say first that I am convinced that EVs are the way to go since a long time, even if I like the flat 6 roaring noise.

My first analysis was exactly that, there will be some adapter and "it will be fine", but I am "really smelling the crap" now :

1) yes the car is great but I cannot use it the way I should be. It's always a struggle when doing trips.

My current experience with EA is trash, really trash and I am not trusting them to do the right thing anymore.

I spent countless hours talking with them (up to corporate) and I am convinced that they don't know the f.... what they are doing. They are really incompetents at many levels.

Not only their chargers are broken all the time (they clearly don't know how to maintain their existing chargers - they use suppliers to do the maintenance, their ticketing system is so bad, they don't have parts) but their deployment of new ones is just not cutting it.

See how Tesla is deploying and maintaining theirs ... check what they have done at Harris Ranch: we have 6 CCS (1 or 2 broken all the time) vs 25 Tesla SuC and more than 50 new SuC installed recently ... mind blowing.

EA also rely on OEMs (BTC, Signet, ABB, Delta ...) for their chargers and the end user experience is only as good as their relationship.

BTW one point in buying my Taycan was to access the FREE 3 years 30min sessions charging. Well this is plain BS, because those chargers are mostly broken and in low quantities so I cannot even benefit from this free stuff. This is sadly plain false advertising.

Some folks are even so unhappy that a class action is in preparation (BTW I would encourage everybody in the US to fill that up):

https://www.sauderschelkopf.com/inv...ca-broken-chargers-class-action-investigation


2) Tesla is in **no rush** to retrofit more SuC with the CCS Magic Dock. They are simply doing it for the subsidies ... and will reinvest the money they will receive into their own SuC network.

I am smelling the strategy here is to get that money to deploy more of their v4 chargers with longer cables. And yes the charging cable length is key here as we all know the SuC v3 is really a poor experience with the Magic Dock.

The main goal for Tesla is to kill CCS in the US. They are going closer and closer everyday.


3) the used Taycan market has quite crashed and the car is not keeping its value. This is sadly a fact even if the car is really great. Reasons are multiple : average range, pricing and of course ... crappy CCS charging network. The current Taycans value will go even further down if Porsche decides to upgrade the battery pack to something better for provide a longer range (hello 2024 Macan EV ...).

At the same time the 911 market is very healthy and used car value is strong. Yeah that's an ICE car and not great for the planet and gos price can varies and you need to put engine oil on a regular basis... but I will never struggle filling it ... wherever I am in the US.


4) do not underestimate the Korean car manufacturers here: they are all in for EVs and will also do an agreement with Tesla for accessing the SuC network in the US and ... will also use the NACS plug in their future cars ... because they are forced to compete on the same playing field with Ford and GM.

You could say: but Porsche could to that too for the US, right. Well no, Porsche is VW and VW is controlling EA so you will be content with just an adapter ...


So tell me, why should I buy this $160k (before tax) beautiful new Taycan GTS which I spent countless hours to configure and ... which I will struggle charging and which value will drop like a stone ?

I totally understand the reflex here, and the frustration, but I don't see the point of this honestly. You'd take a bad value hit already, yet the car is perfectly fine right now and will be for a good long while. At some point, in theory CCS1 cars could become significantly less desirable, but only up to a point I think. There's no reason I can think of that the aftermarket wouldn't swoop in and provide an adapter, and there is no reason to think that there won't be either 1) multiple NACS providers who would offer charging via the adapter or 2) Tesla as a monopoly on NACS stations, at that point forced to.

I do think the next few years will be rocky, and it certainly now suddenly sucks being in the "CCS1 only" camp, but that's a camp that every non-Tesla owner in NA to date is in, so there will be some kind of solution. Plus, ICE hardly has some rosy future ahead (which is the point of all of this right?)

 

[satchurator]

So tell me, why should I buy this $160k (before tax) beautiful new Taycan GTS which I spent countless hours to configure and ... which I will struggle charging and which value will drop like a stone ?

I don't think this fatalism is justified, but you can certainly vote with your dollars and buy a Tesla/Ford/GM.

 

[EVmaniak]

You have honestly NOT answered the question and just tried to be "funny" ! There is no fatality here but just plain facts.

What I am going to do is definitely not this, what the heck I would buy such Tesla / GM / Ford cars ... ?!?

I will go back to a 911 and get its "charging" at any gas station and contemplate its steady resale value.

I will also follow Porsche EVs news very closely. Then, when I feel I am confident I can charge a Porsche EV without too much trouble in the US, then I would do a switch back to such a car.

Enjoy the depreciation on your Taycan ...

I don't think this fatalism is justified, but you can certainly vote with your dollars and buy a Tesla/Ford/GM.

 

[Scandinavian]

for fun I just did the SF Bay Area

"raw" CCS site count - no filters - 335 "sites"
>70kW >=8 = 66 sites
>70kW >=9 = 40 sites
>70kW 10 = 25 sites

I pretty sure the stall count would "mirror" Seattle - 3 and 4 stalls per site is common

vs. 97 supercharger sites where 8-16 stalls is common

so 66 sites (>70 kW & >=8 reliability) average of 4 stalls per site = 264 CCS stalls you can actually use
vs.
97 supercharger sites average 10 stalls per site (normally more) = 970 stalls you can actually use…

I must admire your efforts here David!

Pulling all of that from Plugshare is one way, but the operators should have this and much more information at hand.

Have a look at a video that TeslaBjörn made some time ago on the KemPower chargers. I know it is a fairly long video, but the information that is available and can be called up is quite amazing. They could even call up an unsuccessful charging session at one station from TB’s visit! They identify the cars and also battery size etc without using the cars VIN.

So all of EA issues should be solvable and at hand. Looks more like lousy choice of hardware or/and lack of management skills and resources

 

[Scandinavian]

And given the amount of data that the Tesla cars send while driving, I believe they have even more data at their hands. Tesla is an iPad on wheels!

 

[EVmaniak]

In theory yes, all EA issues should be solvable ... just look at what Tesla is achieving.

In reality, it will never happen because they had already plenty of time for doing it and still their network is not functioning correctly.

EA is organized internally like crap with sub par people and processes ... that's a fact.

I was "lucky" to be able to talk to a repair guy at one of the broken EA station in the SF Bay Area. Here is what he told me:

1) they are EA contractors/vendors and take repair tickets from the EA system.

2) They cannot do any repair without a ticket. Sometimes they see issues (or users are reporting them some issue) and cannot even fix them as they are not allow to do it without a ticket. They would have to call the EA repair center to be able to create a new repair ticket ... but they practically never do it as there are long wait time over the phone.

3) the EA repair ticketing system does not even group repairs on its side for a same charging site.

4) EA has assigned one contractor/vendor per "zone" and so there is no urgency or competition between several of them for fixing anything. They do what they can at their own pace.

5) they miss part all the time

and the list goes on and on ...

Vertical integration is where Tesla is "killing" EA: they control everything from design to manufacturing to installation and maintenance of their SuC. Basically the "Apple way".

As I said before, EA rely on OEMs for their chargers and that also is an issue. They could focus only on one of them but no they decided to get several to make their own life even more miserable.

I would recommend to watch the Tesla Investor days with the 12 VP and Musk. The VP lady in charge of the SuC network explained a lot of things and she sounds pretty smart.

EA cannot compete. It's game over. Sadly,

Have a look at a video that TeslaBjörn made some time ago on the KemPower chargers. I know it is a fairly long video, but the information that is available and can be called up is quite amazing. They could even call up an unsuccessful charging session at one station from TB’s visit! They identify the cars and also battery size etc without using the cars VIN.

So all of EA issues should be solvable and at hand. Looks more like lousy choice of hardware or/and lack of management skills and resources

Sponsored