What happens after 8 year battery warranty?

[whitex]

If all Porsche EV cars become scrap metal after 8 years, just because Porsche refuses to repair batteries for a fair price on what’s supposed to be a 50k car (at least), Porsche will be in big trouble in 10 years from now with all its macans, boxster, Cayennes and taycans going to the scrap yard.

Non one will buy a second hand one - ever. What’s more, the second Hand Market will die, including the Porsche approuved business.

If manufacturers do not solve this, I don’t see any future for the EV market.

If there is going to be a steady supply of free 8 year old Porsches which only need a new battery, there will be entrepreneurial people who will turn it into a business, which in turn will raise the price of battery-less Taycans until equilibrium. Something like this happened with totaled Teslas, some guy (IIRC Rich Rebuilds channel on youtube) buys 2 wrecks. assembles himself a perfectly working Model S Performance and sells remaining parts for more than what the 2 wrecks costed him. After that. totaled Teslas started going for a lot more at auctions.

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[Gino]

If there is going to be a steady supply of free 8 year old Porsches which only need a new battery, there will be entrepreneurial people who will turn it into a business, which in turn will raise the price of battery-less Taycans until equilibrium. Something like this happened with totaled Teslas, some guy (IIRC Rich Rebuilds channel on youtube) buys 2 wrecks. assembles himself a perfectly working Model S Performance and sells remaining parts for more than what the 2 wrecks costed him. After that. totaled Teslas started going for a lot more at auctions.

It will be a great business to offer 3rd party battery pack replacements…
Beautiful cars have a way of motivating people to find ways to get them back on the road.

 

[Fish Fingers]

My dealer told me it takes 10-12 hours of
It doesn’t look like it should take 5-6 hours to get the full pack out and another 5-6 to put it back in…

Its worth factoring Porsche labour rates for Taycan technicians.....

Hourly rate is just above Barristers, Surgeons and Airline pilots.
Just one rung under CEO and Pro footballers.
?

 

[Chas1]

One thing that is not speculation is the cost of replacing a battery pack by Porsche at one of its dealers costing close to $60K after the parts & labor breakdown was put on this forum.
After 8 years these costs will be the responsibility of the vehicle owner rather than the dealer.
Porsche will have to get the a full battery replacement cost down by at least 50% to be in line with the cost to rebuild a Porsche ICE motor.
I’ve spoken with people at the NTHSB about their safety concerns for non OEM or DIY battery replacements which lead to fires due to improper procedures, untested repairs of battery modules and out of spec aging charging systems. I get the feeling from these people that regulations are coming to insure only certified battery repair/replacement facilities supported by the OEMs will be allowed.



In Reply-

It’s unlikely that batteries after 8 years will fail completely so battery repair shops will make necessary repairs at an economical rate. Those that do fail completely mean the car will be worth much less a bit like an ICE car engine failure that can be even more money to replace. The market and technology will find a way. For now secondhand Taycans are a right bargain in the UK.

 

[feye]

1. Time will tell, only when Porsche is confident enough.
2. what? If extendible it will be exactly the same as the first 8 years. T
3. Of course, almost every 4+ year old ICE on the road is out of warranty. And they are all insured. What would be different? A battery lasting 8 years is a good one, so it will not break suddenly in year 9.

What are you afraid of?

Hmm, not to spread panic, but I had already twice a broken module. Just got my Taycan back after a month in the shop. With AC compressor repair, the bill would have been close to USD 10k!

I guess there should be enough second hand batteries available to replace a broken one after 8 years, otherwise the car would be ready for the junk yard, considering how much Porsche charges for a new battery pack, if they even offer one...

 

[Caraholic]

Apr 9, 2023





I have been looking at getting into a taycan ever since they came out. I think I may take the leap now.

Reading your earlier post I kind of doubt you are telling the truth.

What exactly would I be lying about and why would I? The post you highlighted was prior to my purchase which was of June of 2023. Don’t see what that says other then I was trying to do some research of current owners opinions prior to my purchase.

You should get a Taycan there are amazing vehicles. Even though mine has spent the vast majority of my ownership in the shop I still love the vehicle. I have had three different Taycan loaners during this ordeal and all have been fantastic with no problems.

 

[Caraholic]

I can’t imagine having anything on my Taycan being replaced 5 times. I would have found out what the root cause of the failures were long before they replaced 5 units.
In my industry using the most advanced production equipment on earth to produce semiconductors you never just swap part after part or module after module once the first swap fails. You always do an in depth analysis to determine the root cause of the failure so the design or the defective component(s) in the system can be identified & corrected going forward.
It would be a huge red flag to me if my dealer kept replacing the same part or module more than 2 times let alone 5 times. I’m not saying it can’t happen but the more times it does happen it means there is something else at play.
I remember back in the early 2000s the Porsche Boxster was having engine problems which ended up being caused by cigarette smokers riding with the top down or windows open. When they flicked their cigarette ash out the window with their arm alongside the door the ashes would get sucked into th air intake immediately behind the driver or passenger. Evidently some engineer or mechanic figured this out when he found these foreign debris including cigarette butts in the air intake manifold.
I don’t smoke but I was warned about this by a Porsche Master Engine Rebuilder in Northern California who found the root cause of certain types of engine failures he had seen over the years but a much higher incidence in the Boxster because if the unique location of the air intakes and the airflow dynamics of this specific vehicle. He said finding a cigarette butt in the intake was his first clue…
The moral of the story is that you never know what the root cause may be. It could be in the design of the car or something related to the user. The trick is to find what it causing the repeated failures rather than simply chalk it up to another bad part…

I 100% agree with this. However this is warranty work and I don’t get the option of do or do not replace it. I brought up multiple times you just replaced that a month ago but it gets replaced anyways. From what I was told somehow that when an overheat condition occurs during charging. There is a software error that corrupts or ruins the on board high voltage charger. Supposably Porsche is aware of this and are trying to produce a fix. This is what I was told by my master tech. I have no reason to not believe him but also no information pointing one way or the other.

 

[Gino]

If there is going to be a steady supply of free 8 year old Porsches which only need a new battery, there will be entrepreneurial people who will turn it into a business, which in turn will raise the price of battery-less Taycans until equilibrium. Something like this happened with totaled Teslas, some guy (IIRC Rich Rebuilds channel on youtube) buys 2 wrecks. assembles himself a perfectly working Model S Performance and sells remaining parts for more than what the 2 wrecks costed him. After that. totaled Teslas started going for a lot more at auctions.

Not sure what the law is in the US for the minimum number of years any manufacturer must offer parts for its vehicles. Used to be 10 years from what I remember but not sure what it is now…

 

[Gino]

I 100% agree with this. However this is warranty work and I don’t get the option of do or do not replace it. I brought up multiple times you just replaced that a month ago but it gets replaced anyways. From what I was told somehow that when an overheat condition occurs during charging. There is a software error that corrupts or ruins the on board high voltage charger. Supposably Porsche is aware of this and are trying to produce a fix. This is what I was told by my master tech. I have no reason to not believe him but also no information pointing one way or the other.

It sounds like the process is working correctly during the warranty period. When they find a flawed part or assembly they need to determine the root cause and then define the solution and then implement the solution in production of the part or assembly. This can easily take 6-12 months or more to finally get the solution to the dealer and affected customers.
I always appreciate when my service advisor or mechanic lets me know what they are doing behind the scenes and in the meantime if the part or assembly fails they will continue to replace it until the ultimate solution is available.
I get nervous when they simply say nothing and replace the part over & over.
Of course every quality manufacturer has a continuous improvement program to address repeated failures and your dealer is keeping you in the loop as he should.
Customers are an integral part of the continuous improvement program…

 

[Vim Schrotnock]

I think people are getting way too concerned about battery failure after 8 years or 100K miles. If a battery has lasted that long, almost certainly any problems have long been discovered and repaired.


With the recent statement from Porsche that the battery degradation is much less than they anticipated, I don't see a big risk for people buying an 8yr/100K mi Taycan in terms of the battery. In fact, as stated earlier, there are many more significant problems that you could encounter in an ICE car that don't exist for the EV Taycan. In fact, I would think they Taycan would have above average reliability compared to an equivalent ICE basically because the battery is less likely to have a problem than all of the ICE components the Taycan has eliminated.

I do think the insurance costs have to be considered seriously though. If a minor 'bump' totals the car, this is a major problem. Not sure what to do about this.

 

[whitex]

One of their biggest fears is a DIY battery repaired vehicle gets sold to an unsuspecting buyer unaware the battery could rupture into a runaway fire in their garage, at the office garage, shopping center garage or an airport garage.

That is a valid concern, but isn't it as valid with ICE repairs? Gasoline is a pretty combustible substance, actually more explosive than Lithium batteries. Furthermore there is also the concern of carbon monoxide - improperly repaired ICE car which leaks CO into the cabin could be deadly (if it doesn't kill the driver with CO it can incapacitate the driver, who in turn will crash and might die anyways, and kill others).

Even Tesla charges $35K to replace the 5 battery modules in a model S out of warranty.

I think your data is really old. You can get a whole battery replaced with a refurbished one, at Tesla, for less than that. IIRC, last I was reading on Tesla forums it was $22K with labor. It might be even cheaper today.

 

[whitex]

I agree completely. The companies that will have a place in the auto industry of the future will only do so if they solve the long term economics.
To not do so would be like driving off a cliff. Porsche has a long term plan just as many other auto manufacturers which gives me the confidence to be an early adopter with the patience to wait for the long term EV business model to mature and flourish. Until then I get to drive one of the most beautiful performance sedans on earth!

While I agree Porsche probably has a long term plan, I am not as optimistic as you that they will not just leave the early adopters behind. A good litmus test will be whether Gen1 Taycans get access to Tesla supercharger networks in the USA, or only Gen2 and/or Macan EV's.

 

[whitex]

Not sure if the built in charger is tied to both ports.

It is.

It does explain why Porsche issued a service bulletin stating you should only use the 120V charger in emergencies and never for more than 12 hours at a time.

Nothing to do with this. the built in charger is for both 120V and 240V, same plugs, wires, same wires, same onboard charger. The 120V bulletin was because L1 charging is very slow, which keeps the car awake too much, which further eats up the battery charge. I'd forger 120V charging unless it's an emergency. I've been charging using 240V/80A/19.2KW for over a year and half, no issues.

 

[Gino]

That is a valid concern, but isn't it as valid with ICE repairs? Gasoline is a pretty combustible substance, actually more explosive than Lithium batteries. Furthermore there is also the concern of carbon monoxide - improperly repaired ICE car which leaks CO into the cabin could be deadly (if it doesn't kill the driver with CO it can incapacitate the driver, who in turn will crash and might die anyways, and kill others).

I think your data is really old. You can get a whole battery replaced with a refurbished one, at Tesla, for less than that. IIRC, last I was reading on Tesla forums it was $22K with labor. It might be even cheaper today.

That’s a great sign… I’m sure there are many shops dying to get a piece of the battery repair & replacement business.
There are risks with ICE vehicles but they are well understood with decades of safe operation. A lithium ion battery only needs a pinhole to allow moisture into the pack leading to arcing. The last LG recall on their battery packs was due to a failed batch of adhesive which would allow the seams of an individual battery pouch to become open to ambient air. This failure just like a pinhole would lead to arcing and a runaway fire.
Gas tanks & even propane, LNG & hydrogen have been proven to be very stable with the exception of being in an accident. Lithium ion & Hydrogen are the worst in terms of violent fires & explosions but the Lithium ion fire is the most difficult to put out once it gets started. This is why the NTHSB is going to introduce regulations on the safe handling, repair, refurbishment & installation of Lithium ion batteries so the driver doesn’t get into a very dangerous situation.
Battery technologies & safety systems to reduce or prevent runaway fires will come over time just as safety systems for ICE vehicles developed over many decades.

 

[Gino]

While I agree Porsche probably has a long term plan, I am not as optimistic as you that they will not just leave the early adopters behind. A good litmus test will be whether Gen1 Taycans get access to Tesla supercharger networks in the USA, or only Gen2 and /or Macan EV's.

Oh I hope they don’t leave us behind…

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