My Views After Test Driving RWD & 4S Both today!

[gnop1950]

Marketing drivel and total nonsense, even if you count parade laps. The vast majority of Porsche sports cars never see the track. There is definitely a core segment of track day owners, but it’s still a relatively low percentage.

Sadly, not only do most GT3s never get tracked, most of them don’t even get driven extensively, but rather live most of their lives tucked away in garages under PPF and ceramic coatings, apparently to protect the car from something that might fall off a shelf.

You said GT3's, I found a source that said different 80% versus you claiming not even 20%. If you could link me to your source that would be great, if not, well I'll go with the sources I can find.

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[herminal]

you understand so little of the porsche brand or it’s appeal…check out my profile pic.

Porsche makes cars that are ready for maximum performance at any time with no preparation unlike other vendors - one pedal driving is just _ONE_ example that is not ready for maximum performance - there are other’s we won’t go into.

Me with Tesla’s head test driver @ thunderhill - the Model 3 is impressive on track for it’s price point but honestly not up to the task and suffers from many many many short comings - I was only able to conduct one abbreviated track sesison before the factory brake pads disintigrated and I had to retire the vehicle for the day - something unexpected with Porsche and largely intolerable.

the Model 3 is quick, but it’s not fast, and simply not up the task of a real performance car - come ot the track with me and I’ll demonstrate it’s short comings in gory detail - as a 4 door sedan for a medium price point it’s quite good, as a performance car it’s short coming are innumerable.

I believe you’re out of your depth critiquing Porsche and their decisions, but then again I’m probably wrong.

most Porsches aren’t made for the track.. take yours average panamera, macan, even a non GT 911… a few laps on the track and the brakes are shot…

I drive a model S.. I love the car.. but have a Taycan on order and will keep the model S.. two totally different cars. But both unsuited for real track use

 

[daveo4EV]

most Porsches aren’t made for the track.. take yours average panamera, macan, even a non GT 911… a few laps on the track and the brakes are shot…

this statement is inconsistent with my personal experience with any of the Porsche’s I’ve owned or the students I’ve instructed - the factory brakes do just fine in a 20-30 min HPDE session with street tires.

in fact in 13 years of track experience Porsche’s are about the _ONLY_ vehicle that do fine on the track - even the Panamera’s and Macan’s…

I instructed a student in a bone stock panamera GTS last december at Laguna Seca - it ran all 5 HPDE sessions each 25 min with zero issues - other than it’s a big heavy sports sedan, but the brakes did wonderfully.

My friends BMW M5 does not fair so well on the track with the factory stock “performance” brakes having severe thermal/brake-fade issues after only 3 or 4 laps - my personal experience (and that of hundreds of PCA GGR members over the past decade) is that Porsche Stock Factory brakes are more than up to the task of a 20-25 minute track session - about the only thing that is noticed is that factory pads will only last about 3 track days with that level of abuse, but that’s a far cry from the Model 3 brake pads disintegrating after fewer than 5 laps.

I work with a local performance shop that services 1000’s of bay area cars for both street and track use - they have 20 years experience with all the major brands and are a proven winning race team. Porsche, McLaren, Ferarri’s and few other’s can be driven “off the lot” and onto the track with no upgrades required. Other brands: Ford Mustangs, Corvetts, Camero’s, Mini Coopers, BMW’s M or otherwise, etc they recommend based on decades of experience that you not track the vehicle with certain factory stock equipment (the brakes being one of the main problems with factory equipment)

Even my Taycan’s brakes do just fine @ Laguna seca with zero brake issues, but the battery overheats and throttles full power after 5 or 6 full pace laps- but the car does fine - it’s just down on power at the end of the session - brakes again are no issue.

 

[raharris]

I also own a Tesla and a Taycan and I can confirm what others wrote here before: Initially I also disliked the coasting feature of the Taycan, but after getting used to it, I also start to like it.

One pedal driving is nice for city driving with a lot of start/stop. But I like the coasting feature of the Taycan at higher speeds, on the highway: It gives a more relaxed drive. You do not need to push the pedal exactly right to get a stable speed.

What would be nice would be a kind of 'adaptive regen': a high level of regen at low speeds but no regen at high speeds.
That would be a nice OTA software option !

I actually find the auto regen meets my needs most of the time; although I turn auto off for more spirited driving

 

[herminal]

this statement is inconsistent with my personal experience with any of the Porsche’s I’ve owned or the students I’ve instructed - the factory brakes do just fine in a 20-30 min HPDE session with street tires.

in fact in 13 years of track experience Porsche’s are about the _ONLY_ vehicle that do fine on the track - even the Panamera’s and Macan’s…

I instructed a student in a bone stock panamera GTS last december at Laguna Seca - it ran all 5 HPDE sessions each 25 min with zero issues - other than it’s a big heavy sports sedan, but the brakes did wonderfully.

Even my Taycan’s brakes do just fine @ Laguna seca with zero brake issues, but the battery overheats and throttles full power after 5 or 6 full pace laps- but the car does fine - it’s just down on power at the end of the session - brakes again are no issue.

I don’t want to second guess you.. Only can say I had a 5000 euro repair bill for my panamera ( hybrid ) brakes ( warped disks) after a visit to the ring and a trackday on F1 circuit of Francorchamps​

 

[tbinmd]

most Porsches aren’t made for the track.. take yours average panamera, macan, even a non GT 911… a few laps on the track and the brakes are shot…

Nothing a better set of brake pads won't fix. But it depends on how aggressive you drive and of course how hard the track you are driving is on the brakes. But any porsche can go from show room to track with very little modification.

 

[daveo4EV]

​

I don’t want to second guess you.. Only can say I had a 5000 euro repair bill for my panamera ( hybrid ) brakes ( warped disks) after a visit to the ring and a trackday on F1 circuit of Francorchamps​

wow - that's not been my experience - but obviously it is yours - warps disks can happen if the brake pads are worn - do you know what % pad wear (or miles on the car) where when you went on track - pads below 50% transfer far more heat to the rotors than nearly new pads - you can quickly wear out any brakes if you track them when you are past the 50% mark on pad wear…but that's true for any brake system - PCA GGR inspects all the track day cars and we advise drivers with worn pads that they will most likley want new pads or the additional wear on the brakes will accelerate a brake job…

also warps rotors are a replacment issues - brakes wear and warped rotors are not uncommon - however did you experience any brake fade while on track?

some clarity is that while Porsche factory brakes are "up to the task" of being taken on track directly off the dealer lot - that does't mean you won't wear them and potentially need to service them after your track day - however what separates Porsche from other vendors is the lack of brake fade and they generally perform well with little to any loss of braking effectiveness while on track. This is in contrast to other vendor's brakes that will experience brake fade & failure after only a few laps of full pace hot laps…

Porsche brakes however are not immune to brake wear and they may/often need be services after doing their "on track duty" - but I've yet to see prosche brakes fail on track in a 30 min or less HPDE session, and normally pedal feel and braking distance is stellar…however wear is accelerated during track use and you may need to replace/service the brakes after just a few track days.

again we need to distinguish between accelerated wear characteristics (high performance driving), and on-track brake failure or extreme loss of performance or effectiveness. I have worn out Porsche brakes, but I've rarly experience a loss of performance (unless I've pushed them beyond reasonable wear guidelines).

Porsche brakes are excellent, but not indestructible, and in fact one of the things that makes them soooo good is that Porsche allows them to wear at an accelerated rate when necessary to maintain performance. You can easily wear out Porsche brakes with high performance driving, but the braking performance until they are worn out will be stellar - again this is in contrast to other vendors who's brakes will simply stop being effective when they are pushed, regardless of where they are in their lifecycle.

just because you had to replace your panamera's rotors doesn't mean the brakes were not up to the task vs. other heavy sedan where you would most likley have experience actual failure before finishing a lap at the ring or an F1 track.

other vehicles it's not at all uncommon that you have to abort hot laps mid way through a lap/session because of the extreme loss of braking effectiveness - once you are there you'll know it - and will also most likely need to service the brakes after that track session.

needing to service the brakes after high performance driving is not a sign the brakes are not up the task (it's expected) - again how did they do while on track?

1. the benchmark here is NOT - did you need to service the brakes after tracking your Porsche?
2. the benchmark is: did you need to abort your laps/track day/track session because the brakes were clearly not up to the task?

tracking your Porsche or any car will accelerate your maintenance costs by A LOT!!! No question, but that is not a sign the brakes are not up to the task. Other vendors you can't even use the factory brakes and must replace them with different braking system _BEFORE_ you even attempt to track the vehicle…

#1 is common and expected for any vehicle even with non-factory performance brakes (go on ask my my annual brake budget for my 2015 911 GT3 cup car when we were racing it and won the series in 2016 - we'd go through two sets of rotors in one race weekend - but on track the brakes always worked).
#2 is common for most non-Porsche cars - i.e. you can't even use the factory brakes on track for any length of time.

most vehicles you'll need to abort your laps if you're paying attention to the brakes and will become horrified quite quickly as to how quicklly they begin to fail. Not the case with Porsche, but you will need to service them post your track days.

the fact that you completed ring laps and F1 track laps and then had to service the brakes due to accelerated wear is expected, and actually quite good for a 4,500 lbs sports sedan on factory brakes - LOL attempting that in a BMW 7 series for example, you wouldn't have completed the ring lap at all.

 

[DerekS]

Even my Taycan’s brakes do just fine @ Laguna seca with zero brake issues, but the battery overheats and throttles full power after 5 or 6 full pace laps- but the car does fine - it’s just down on power at the end of the session - brakes again are no issue.

And you don't have any problems with the noise levels!

 

[daveo4EV]

And you don't have any problems with the noise levels!

it was a 90 DB sound day at Laguna - and my factory stock GT3 won't make sound at a 92 DB day @ laugna - the Taycan had no problem making the sound limit -

but that doens't mean I was wasnt' called in for a potential sound violation - I did in fact get the meat-ball of death you have to report to black flag station for sound flag at turn 7 once - I rolled upto the black flag station - they looked at the car, shook their heads and waved me through with out requiring me to stop - obviously the flagger had either gotten the wrong numbers reported or simply gauged the sound of a near by car and thought it was me…it would be an easy mistake to make - since most people in most cars need to lift to make sound between turns 5 & 6 uphill - but I was passing lots and lots of cars @ full power between turn 5 & 6 cause I have no sound llimit in the Taycan - flagger gets a blip on teh sound meter looks outside sees this big fast car absolutely tearing up the hill at a high rate of speed, it must be the car making the sound meter bounce cause it's clearly the fastest…LOL

 

[PorscheCH]

This is exactly where I felt unsafe after test driving it.
Like spending a fortune and then not feeling safe while driving - because have to brake hard to stop from 100 to 0 if someone cuts through your way. Very dangerous.

Even trolling is funny, in a way. ?? , if somebody cuts you, don't brake, fake a left pass, go wide and overtake on the right.

 

[Deleted member 6348]

It doesn’t appear to have been brought up in this thread, but there’s also a fundamental reason why Porsche using the coasting approach… simply, because they can.

The Taycan has a 2 speed transmission that also allows the rear electric motor to be completely disengaged. This substantially reduces the rolling losses versus a car that always has its drive motors engaged with the wheels.

As a result, a Taycan is considerably more efficient at coasting than a Tesla.

The one pedal driving isn’t a feature. It’s a workaround to Tesla’s engineering problem.

 

[Jayyvr890]

The one pedal driving isn’t a feature. It’s a workaround to Tesla’s engineering problem.

Totally. People also don't realise that a tesla is only able to regen about 70kw, porsche can do 260kw.

On a Tesla, as soon as one lift off the gas pedal, regen is applied at a preset level which I think can be adjusted to either high or low.

On Porsches (including the ehybrids) regen is applied with the break peadal, almost infinite amount of variable regen from 1 to 265kw.

On a tesla as soon as break petal is touched, friction break is activated. That one pedal driving is needed on a tesla to improve efficiency. It's not required on taycan.

 

[Jhenson29]

The Taycan has a 2 speed transmission that also allows the rear electric motor to be completely disengaged. This substantially reduces the rolling losses versus a car that always has its drive motors engaged with the wheels.

This has been discussed some already on the “two speed transmission” thread, but I don’t think transmission disengagement is significant to the efficiency, or at a minimum, efficiency from disengagement was not the driving factor. I think they geared it in to optimize 0-60 and then needed a second gearing to reach a max speed that wouldn’t be laughed at.

Is it some? Sure some. But I don’t think it’s significant. I think it exists for other reasons and they marketed this as another benefit. But in the absence of the original reason, I don’t think they would do the two-speed.

I’m not complaining. I don’t dislike the two-speed. Just saying.

It doesn’t appear to have been brought up in this thread, but there’s also a fundamental reason why Porsche using the coasting approach… simply, because they can.

RE why other’s don’t, probably brake blending difficulties more than not being able to coast.

 

[herminal]

wow - that's not been my experience - but obviously it is yours - warps disks can happen if the brake pads are worn - do you know what % pad wear (or miles on the car) where when you went on track - pads below 50% transfer far more heat to the rotors than nearly new pads - you can quickly wear out any brakes if you track them when you are past the 50% mark on pad wear…but that's true for any brake system - PCA GGR inspects all the track day cars and we advise drivers with worn pads that they will most likley want new pads or the additional wear on the brakes will accelerate a brake job…

also warps rotors are a replacment issues - brakes wear and warped rotors are not uncommon - however did you experience any brake fade while on track?

Porsche brakes however are not immune to brake wear and they may/often need be services after doing their "on track duty" - but I've yet to see prosche brakes fail on track in a 30 min or less HPDE session, and normally pedal feel and braking distance is stellar…however wear is accelerated during track use and you may need to replace/service the brakes after just a few track days.

again we need to distinguish between accelerated wear characteristics (high performance driving), and on-track brake failure or extreme loss of performance or effectiveness. I have worn out Porsche brakes, but I've rarly experience a loss of performance (unless I've pushed them beyond reasonable wear guidelines).

Porsche brakes are excellent, but not indestructible, and in fact one of the things that makes them soooo good is that Porsche allows them to wear at an accelerated rate when necessary to maintain performance. You can easily wear out Porsche brakes with high performance driving, but the braking performance until they are worn out will be stellar - again this is in contrast to other vendors who's brakes will simply stop being effective when they are pushed, regardless of where they are in their lifecycle.

just because you had to replace your panamera's rotors doesn't mean the brakes were not up to the task vs. other heavy sedan where you would most likley have experience actual failure before finishing a lap at the ring or an F1 track.

other vehicles it's not at all uncommon that you have to abort hot laps mid way through a lap/session because of the extreme loss of braking effectiveness - once you are there you'll know it - and will also most likely need to service the brakes after that track session.

needing to service the brakes after high performance driving is not a sign the brakes are not up the task (it's expected) - again how did they do while on track?

1. the benchmark here is NOT - did you need to service the brakes after tracking your Porsche?
2. the benchmark is: did you need to abort your laps/track day/track session because the brakes were clearly not up to the task?

tracking your Porsche or any car will accelerate your maintenance costs by A LOT!!! No question, but that is not a sign the brakes are not up to the task. Other vendors you can't even use the factory brakes and must replace them with different braking system _BEFORE_ you even attempt to track the vehicle…

#1 is common and expected for any vehicle even with non-factory performance brakes (go on ask my my annual brake budget for my 2015 911 GT3 cup car when we were racing it and won the series in 2016 - we'd go through two sets of rotors in one race weekend - but on track the brakes always worked).
#2 is common for most non-Porsche cars - i.e. you can't even use the factory brakes on track for any length of time.

most vehicles you'll need to abort your laps if you're paying attention to the brakes and will become horrified quite quickly as to how quicklly they begin to fail. Not the case with Porsche, but you will need to service them post your track days.

the fact that you completed ring laps and F1 track laps and then had to service the brakes due to accelerated wear is expected, and actually quite good for a 4,500 lbs sports sedan on factory brakes - LOL attempting that in a BMW 7 series for example, you wouldn't have completed the ring lap at all.

they were performing well.. could indeed well be that the pads were worn and that I kept driving…

 

[Bazza]

Taycan was the qualifier.
in my opinion the taycan and it's owners are not really suited for track days like the ICE porsches are.

You sure?
The driver in the video is a well known racing driver in the UK

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