What's the best alternative to the Taycan?

[prj]

Best to let the ECU and designers worry about all that and just drive the thing

There's no optimum really, the engine runs quite cold on the hybrids. Then in winter if you floor it, it goes to redline while cold. It's not great.
That said, it'll last the warranty, I'm sure. After that though ...

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[Dabz]

That said, it'll last the warranty, I'm sure. After that though ...

Same boat as the Taycan then…I’ll have no choice to extend my warranty because OPC can’t look at the issues until we’re pushing on the door of the end of it (would always have extended anyway, but I’d rather have the car fixed so I can get rid)

 

[daveo4EV]

I've had enough now so ready to bail out, cut my losses and get rid of this car.

Nav doesn't work, no fix until June if we're lucky. I've had all the recalls, new windscreen from manufacturing fault, it's been in the OPC more than any other car I've owned, there are squeaks and rattles coming, and now the LTE is broken and they can't book me in until mid-March (they said mid-April until I pointed out I'm already booked in mid-March for something else). Porsche service (here in the UK at least) is rubbish, and while the car is a joy to drive the tech backing it up is just woeful. I don't trust the car not to let me down and I'm sick to death of wasting day after day driving to/from the OPC.

So - what do folks think is the closed EV alternative to the Taycan? I'm looking for a similar mix of driving experience/performance and prestige. Money not necessarily an object but in an ideal world I wouldn't lose 70k in 3 years again (though EVs are still developing fast, so they'll all depreciate as tech gets better)

My only other thought is to get in to a 911 GTS with the new T-Hybrid engine, but that doesn't sort the "we can't look at your broken car for 2 months if you want a loan vehicle, or a month if not" issue.

so I'm thinking this is your direct replacement - totally equivalent - no compromise…

https://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/civic-hybrid/configurator.html#mtoce=CIVIC~FL483TG~KE~|NH-883P|WZ|&grade=Elegance&engine=11-Automatic-Hybrid&colour=NH-883P&trim=BK&accessories=wheel-elegance&additionalProducts=&payment=cash

totally 100% as good or better than the Taycan - such a driver's car…

 

[69Mach390]

The very argument I've been raising for a long time. It's incredible how they've brainwashed people to buy into a compromised package purely through fearmongering.

Lots of people make this argument with EVs vs hybrids- that hybrids are more “complex.”

While this is true, complexity is basically an irrelevant statistic. All that matters is the end result- price, performance, reliability etc.

And in the BEV vs hybrid argument, BEVs lose two of those categories currently.

Complexity doesn’t necessarily mean less reliable. At least that’s the case currently.

It reminds me of a couple decades ago when people would argue about “horsepower per liter.” It’s a fun fact that’s basically meaningless. I preferred the (almost never used) stat for an engine- hp/lb. Who cares how small the displacement is if the engine weighs more? It was the old 5.0 Ford vs 5.7 Chevy debate.

Bottom line? I don’t care if it’s complex if it’s cheaper and more reliable.

 

[Zcd1]

Without reading 7 pages of this thread, has anyone suggested a Lucid Air Grand Touring? It's bigger, with WAY BETTER packaging, great straight line performance, great range. Thoughts?

Actually had the opportunity to drive a '23 Lucid Air Grand Touring recently.

A few takeaways, in no particular order: (for perspective, my DD is a Model S Plaid)

• It's low, but access isn't quite as restricted as I'd feared
• The seating position felt lower than the Plaid
• Rear seat had a ton of legroom (clearly more than my car) but the headroom was restricted, at least for me. My head was in contact with the roof when I was seated back there.
• The ergonomics felt a bit strange (did indeed notice the far-away door panel armrest thing) but not awful - just different
• Software felt mostly responsive
• Hated the tiny NAV map display - it's maybe 1/4 what I'm used to in the Plaid
• It didn't feel as structurally solid as I'd expected - about on par with my car, which was surprising.
• It didn't seem any quieter than my car, and as a matter of fact felt slightly noisier, with noticeable road-noise coming from the driver's side rear-door area
• Not a fan of the ever-present electric motor whine. I recall reading about this, and I don't know whether it's intentional or accidental, but I didn't like it
• The trunk itself isn't huge, but both the bin below the trunk AND the front trunk ARE huge. Total cargo volume is probably similar, but the S's hatchback is more practical and the opening is obviously much larger
• Visibility seemed slightly restriced compared to the S
• Regenerative braking offered 3 choices: 1- not enough, 2 - still not enough, and 3 - too much.
• With ~200 HP less and ~300 lbs extra curb weight, it's still very fast, though not in the Plaid's league.
• Audio system didn't seem as good, though I didn't spend much time tweaking it.

So in the end, I didn't like it as much as I thought I might.

 

[mystermykee]

WRT Lucid Air GT. My parents have one and have had a lot of seat time in it. I consider myself to be a fairly in tune type of driver and dialed into road conditions and handling feedback, especially with the same daily commute. It's very, umm how do you say, boring. Nothing about the way it drives or how it makes me feel while driving it is inspiring, despite all the tangibles it may have as far as comfortability and tech goes.

So no, the Air GT is not an alternative.

 

[dcp10]

WRT Lucid Air GT

Well, since the OP is in the UK, Lucid is a non starter. Yes, they may be making noises about a RHD version of their "Gravity" SUV (appropriate name, given the look of the thing), but I wouldn't touch the company with a bargepole - at least, now that their former CEO the visionary Peter Rawlinson is out of the picture.

As for customer service: the complete pits!

Lucid told us all they were going to bring the Air to the UK and I duly paid my $1000 deposit. Pretty much zero communication since then. They held onto my money - interest free - for four years, then sent a tersely-worded e-mail announcing they were cancelling their plans. No apology; no interest on the money; just a phone number and e-mail address in case I needed to speak with them. And they've ghosted me ever since...

No replies to multiple e-mails - apart from automatic acknowledgments that the message had been received. I even called the phone number they gave and ended up speaking with some perplexed European who was clearly desperate to get me off the line. He promised - repeatedly - that a senior manager would call me in the next two days. Never happened.

I was in a similar position with Tesla 15 years ago when they cancelled my "Signature" reservation for the first RHD Model S. But in that case I got a personal phonecall from a senior manager, priority treatment for my subsequent (non-signature) car, a year's free servicing and lots of goodies and goodwill. Completely different world.

So, to any fellow Brits out there: Lucid is a complete no go, even if they bring their lardy SUV over here. Stay away!!!

 

[Chris82]

So I’ve been reading through this thread and lots of options out there. But no one has mentioned the obvious choice, keep the car and get yourself a VW caddy maxi van, loads of room in the back, always turns heads as it’s a very lovable motors and everyone wants one, it’s a prestigious mark, something you can work on yourself, parts are cheap and easy to come by and drive while the Taycan is in the shop getting fix

And classic British Gas blue is a must. Don’t get jealous now everyone

That’s what I’ve got and if I’m honest I love driving it as much as the Taycan and can fix any problems with it myself.

Touch wood no problems with Taycan as of yet.

Just another option for you

 

[ferdiaz]

I don’t care if it’s complex if it’s cheaper and more reliable.

Except it's not cheaper, and definitely not more reliable.

PHEVs are found to have more problems than both ICE and BEV vehicles. So much so that it's currently considered the least reliable type of powertrain:

https://insideevs.com/news/764309/p...lectric vehicles,problems than PHEVs and BEVs.

Purchase price also puts them at around 15% more expensive than the equivalent ICE version. Admittedly, fueling is slighly cheaper with PHEVs, but that is a cost that needs to be made back by being diligent with driving it in electric mode as much as possible:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-a-plug-in-hybrid-save-you-money-a9313086164/

Ultimately, this is a case of jack of all trades, master of none. Complexity isn't an intangible abstraction as you make it out to be. Complexity is what runs you large bills. And that's because there more complexity you introduce in an architecture, the more gaps you create in it. Example of issues that only exist with PHEV platforms:

• High load on cold start, as mentioned by prj. This is a real thing, not just a bogus claim. Cruising in EV mode and revving a stone cold ICE engine to perform an overtake in the highway is something ONLY happens with a PHEV.
• As a consequence of trying to run the car as cheap as possible (i.e. by mostly using EV mode), a lot of PHEV owners end up with stale gas in the tank. This leads to oxidation and clogged injectors. For cars that see continuous use, this is a situation that is exclusive to PHEVs.
• When PHEVs are used in their intended way, which with a charged battery, then the ICE engine usually runs in short cycles. Because of not really warming up to temperature as described above, the moisture that accumulates in the crankcase never really has the chance to evaporate. This results in "milky" oil, which leads to internal corrosion.
• Two drivetrains to service.
• At any given moment, ONE drivetrain is just dead weight that is being lugged around.

So going back to my original claim: these are, by design, a compromised architecture.

They inherit the problems from both ICE and BEV and fail to bring a quantifiable advantage over them. One could say the only advantage is that consumption "could" be lower in a PHEV than in an ICE. But to achieve that, using it in EV mode is required until the initial higher cost is offset.

At that point, it begs the question: if the goal is to save money through low consumption, assuming that the initial higher purchase cost will eventually be offset, then why not going BEV, right? Consumption will be even lower, albeit at an even higher (less and less though) initial cost, and at least you'd left with a more reliable and performant platform.

My opinion remains the same: people who buy a PHEV would be better off with either an ICE or BEV equivalent.

 

[69Mach390]

Except it's not cheaper, and definitely not more reliable.

PHEVs are found to have more problems than both ICE and BEV vehicles. So much so that it's currently considered the least reliable type of powertrain:

https://insideevs.com/news/764309/phev-ev-problems-jd-power-2025/#:~:text=Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles,problems than PHEVs and BEVs.

Purchase price also puts them at around 15% more expensive than the equivalent ICE version. Admittedly, fueling is slighly cheaper with PHEVs, but that is a cost that needs to be made back by being diligent with driving it in electric mode as much as possible:

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-a-plug-in-hybrid-save-you-money-a9313086164/

Ultimately, this is a case of jack of all trades, master of none. Complexity isn't an intangible abstraction as you make it out to be. Complexity is what runs you large bills. And that's because there more complexity you introduce in an architecture, the more gaps you create in it. Example of issues that only exist with PHEV platforms:

• High load on cold start, as mentioned by prj. This is a real thing, not just a bogus claim. Cruising in EV mode and revving a stone cold ICE engine to perform an overtake in the highway is something ONLY happens with a PHEV.
• As a consequence of trying to run the car as cheap as possible (i.e. by mostly using EV mode), a lot of PHEV owners end up with stale gas in the tank. This leads to oxidation and clogged injectors. For cars that see continuous use, this is a situation that is exclusive to PHEVs.
• When PHEVs are used in their intended way, which with a charged battery, then the ICE engine usually runs in short cycles. Because of not really warming up to temperature as described above, the moisture that accumulates in the crankcase never really has the chance to evaporate. This results in "milky" oil, which leads to internal corrosion.
• Two drivetrains to service.
• At any given moment, ONE drivetrain is just dead weight that is being lugged around.

So going back to my original claim: these are, by design, a compromised architecture.

They inherit the problems from both ICE and BEV and fail to bring a quantifiable advantage over them. One could say the only advantage is that consumption "could" be lower in a PHEV than in an ICE. But to achieve that, using it in EV mode is required until the initial higher cost is offset.

At that point, it begs the question: if the goal is to save money through low consumption, assuming that the initial higher purchase cost will eventually be offset, then why not going BEV, right? Consumption will be even lower, albeit at an even higher (less and less though) initial cost, and at least you'd left with a more reliable and performant platform.

My opinion remains the same: people who buy a PHEV would be better off with either an ICE or BEV equivalent.

“Cheaper” was in comparison to BEVs.

“More reliable” was the same.

Per your article- “"For the first time, PHEVs, on average, have more problems than their battery electric vehicle (BEV) counterparts," the study's authors said.”

So for one year, the first time ever, PHEVs were more reliable.

And regular hybrids? Still more reliable.

It’s good that BEVs are getting better. But no, I wouldn’t consider 1 year, for the first time ever, being more reliable in one study than one category of hybrids enough to claim the win.

“Both gasoline cars and normal hybrids rank better than EVs and PHEVs, the study said, at 184 PP100 and 196 PP100, respectively.”

Both ICE and hybrid are “more complex” than EVs. So I’ll say it again, “more complex doesn’t necessarily mean less reliable.”

I think it’s fine you called out PHeVs specifically. But notice my post was talking about “hybrids” as a whole. But that would include PHeVs which is why it’s fine.

 

[Fish Fingers]

That RS5 Avant is making me consider moving back to ICE

With the added benefit that you may be able to actually buy one in the UK, as opposed to the recommendations being made on here for cars we can't buy.

Same issue when talking about dealer waits/loan cars etc.
OP is UK based......not US.

 

[ferdiaz]

I think it’s fine you called out PHeVs specifically. But notice my post was talking about “hybrids” as a whole. But that would include PHeVs which is why it’s fine.

That's where the misunderstanding lays. The discussion was never about the whole hybrid universe, but concretely about PHEVs: you replied to my comment, which was a direct allusion to the criticism raised by @prj SPECIFICALLY aimed at PHEVs like the new RS6.

This was never about HEVs like the McLaren Artura. Those are, essentially, souped up ICE cars.

As such, my argument still stands: PHEVs are, by design, suboptimal. And for any given usecase, either ICE or BEV is a better solution.

 

[kempez]

The Ioniq 5 is a really nice car, I owned one back in 2021 for a short while.
Drive wise it's quite far removed from the Taycan though, and of course the suspension is much less sophisticated.
I preferred the recline upgraded seats though, when I tried the Ioniq 5 N the seats were kinda "too sporty" for me with little adjustment. The problem that the Ioniq 5 has is that the car is heavy and the load carrying capacity is low (max weight).
So when they put in the bigger motors in the N they had to save weight somehow and they opted to do that by chucking lighter seats in.

But still loved my 2021 AWD. Very comfortable and the interior was airy and roomy with the movable center console - the complete opposite of the Taycan

The 5N handling is superb imo. Certainly night and day with the normal 5. It drives a lot more 'fun' than the Taycan, but as I said - doesn't have the luxury of the air in Taycan's with air specified.

Yeah the seats either fit you and feel nice or they don't. They fit perfectly for me and so I am very happy with them.

As I said - the 5N fulfils all of the other briefs, other than a proper luxury car 'feel'. But it's my daily and suits my needs perfectly. The load area is also better for me than the Taycan ST, due to being wider.

The Taycan edges it on looks and luxury feel though

 

[d00d]

And classic British Gas blue is a must. Don’t get jealous now everyone

I like it, looks like PTS Riviera.

 

[anonymouse]

The conversation has got nowhere: there is no consensus about anything that's better than the Taycan.

So Plan B:

Keep the Taycan and buy something with real class, speed and handling for your days off ...

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