High speed charging spotted on facelift Taycan

[whitex]

VW's EA network which so far I believe can be characterized as "poorly done with room for improvement".

I would say that is an understatement. Most "partners" of EA jumped ship pledged allegiance to Elon's network the first chance they got. They no longer cared that they didn't have a vote in the design of the network. Perhaps they finally realized that design-by-committee does not result in the best designs.

I wish that our government would come to the very same conclusion. They could have taken some of the billions of dollars earmarked for the likes of EA, and simply pay Tesla to install magic docs on all superchargers instead. Unfortunately Biden administration would rather we all drive diesels with cheat devices than to admit Elon was right about anything, or give Tesla money without imposing government regulation on their charging network (such as "each charger must have a screen and a credit card reader").

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[Jonathan S.]

The $2b for EA can be thought of as public funds in the sense that to some extent it mitigated the cash penalty that otherwise would have been paid by VAG. (Although that cash would have gone into the U.S. Treasury w/o being earmarked for anything, as is the case for all Clean Air Act penalty payments.)

Either way, although U.S. DOJ and CA AG probably were patting themselves on the back for their self-assessed cleverness in designing the settlement, the value that EV drivers will ultimately end up deriving is far less than the $2b in officially termed Creditable Costs. Will be interesting to see the market valuation of that $2b once EA sells itself off upon the fulfillment of its the legal obligation.

But the more I experience EA the more I recall experience with the 1960s Nigerian railroad system.

No, I've never been to Nigeria. And I was even born until the mid 1960s.

But another economist:
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/...onomist-and-resistance-figure-dies-at-97.html
… was so inspired by his consulting experience there as to write this book:
https://hbr.org/2012/12/exit-voice-and-albert-o-hirsch
… which I think is directly relevant to EA:

1. The Nigerian railroad system, as a government monopoly, was about as bad as would be expected. Business customers used their Voice to complain about the poor service but the railroad management was getting the same funding no matter what, so who cares – not them!
2. The advent of trucking meant that business customers could now simply Exit.
3. Did the railroad managers try to improve service such that business customers would not Exit? Or even try to impose restrictions upon trucking so as to hinder Exit? No: now the railroad managers could continue to offer poor service without the bother of business customers constantly using their Voice to complain. Yet the railroad managers would still receive the same funding from the gov’t. So it was Win-Win for everyone. (Except of course more broadly for Nigeria as a nation, which would fall under a string of various military kleptocracies starting in 1966.)

 

[xyeahtony]

or give Tesla money without imposing government regulation on their charging network (such as "each charger must have a screen and a credit card reader").

What an odd elon-gushing post. The Credit Card reader is used by a lot of people. Plenty of people dont or can't use a smartphone. I always check plugshare about the next DCFC i plan on visiting, and plenty of people report using credit card readers. Its not exactly some gimmick. Not everyone wants to have to download 20 different apps either, i have apps that i had to download for one time charges like Red E, Shell Recharge, Circle K, Francis Energy, EVCS, etc.

There were so many EA chargers i've visited in bad service areas where my phone simply would not have service and i could not do anything with it, especially one time where plug and charge didn't work and i needed to use the phone to start charging. thankfully i had the taycan hotspot to use.

Magic Dock superchargers, while great, are not a one size fits all solutions. Only 1/3rd of CCS cars can use them properly without having to park and block adjacent stalls. i nearly scratched my bumper pulling up to one trying to reach those hilariously short cables.

What the USA needs is what EU/UK already has, which is the ionity network. Or a seamless one-charge card/account solution that will unlock any EV charging network like in europe.

 

[whitex]

What an odd elon-gushing post. The Credit Card reader is used by a lot of people. Plenty of people dont or can't use a smartphone. I always check plugshare about the next DCFC i plan on visiting, and plenty of people report using credit card readers. Its not exactly some gimmick. Not everyone wants to have to download 20 different apps either, i have apps that i had to download for one time charges like Red E, Shell Recharge, Circle K, Francis Energy, EVCS, etc.

There were so many EA chargers i've visited in bad service areas where my phone simply would not have service and i could not do anything with it, especially one time where plug and charge didn't work and i needed to use the phone to start charging. thankfully i had the taycan hotspot to use.

Magic Dock superchargers, while great, are not a one size fits all solutions. Only 1/3rd of CCS cars can use them properly without having to park and block adjacent stalls. i nearly scratched my bumper pulling up to one trying to reach those hilariously short cables.

What the USA needs is what EU/UK already has, which is the ionity network. Or a seamless one-charge card/account solution that will unlock any EV charging network like in europe.

It’s not gushing, it’s a fact. Why do you think so many manufacturers are willing to abandon the network they helped develop for a network ran by a unilateral dictator, who can be quite unpredictable at times? It appears like a desperate move, which it probably is, but desperate times call for desperate measures - they must have realized what they were doing is just not working and is going to leave them behind too far.

I never said Tesla should be the only game in town, but rather than for a low cost of adding magic docs, perhaps combine it with longer cables (which might already come with the MagicDoc retrofit in the USA - Tesla learned from their European opening to others), would result in a low cost significant improvement to the current EV charging network situation. You argument that if it's not perfect it's not worth having is probably why we have the EV charging network we have today. Heck, by that argument, why not shut down EA and any other provider who is not ideal, who doesn't take all forms of payment (some people don't use credit/debit cards either, so they must take bills and coins as they are still legal tender in the USA, right?). Or maybe, since it must be perfect and equitable, each DC charger must also dispense natural gas, hydrogen, diesel and gasoline - since you know, not everyone wants to drive an EV.

So instead of improving things by making existing Tesla chargers available to more EV's, the government is wasting money on trying to design (by politicians) a perfect system, while the industry is jumping ship to a proprietary solution which actually works, even if not perfect. Yes, the Magic Docs would not be unusable by some customers, such as vehicles for which the cable cannot reach or to those who only want to pay with cash, but it would improve things at a much lower per plug cost than building new CCS chargers.

Out of curiosity, with all the billions of dollars allocated to this by the current administration to EV charging infrastructure almost 2 years ago, what did the taxpayers get so far? Is it like Biden's big announcement about making adaptive headlights (not blinding other motorists) finally legal in the USA? It was part of the same spending bill, yet not a single auto manufacturer is offering this technology in USA despite having shipped it worldwide for over a decade, and even having thousands of cars on US roads equipped with the hardware to do it, but which will never be enabled due to government red tape. Government is probably stalled on that too, arguing how to make it perfect. Perfections is the biggest enemy of good enough. Tesla is a good enough example of that.

 

[daveo4EV]

suggesting that someone willing to drive an EV would be prevented from charging by lack of a smartphone is simply silly - the number of likely/existing EV owners that also do not have a smartphone is not an audience size worth designing for - and the trend is that can be fixed.

nor everyone or every scenario needs to be accommodated…

legacy thinking like this would mean we'd still be rocking 8" floppy drive readers on our smart phones…

 

[allroadusa]

Btw, updated the MyPorsche App today and in change log it seems Porsche is cooking up some sort of key fob with RFID (to be paired with the app) as a substitute for the charging card.

 

[FlyingPoint]

Btw, updated the MyPorsche App today and in change log it seems Porsche is cooking up some sort of key fob with RFID (to be paired with the app) as a substitute for the charging card.

So not only will thieves be able to steal your car (after cloning the FOB), now they will be able to charge on your dime after they steal it. Wonderful!

 

[Jhenson29]

The Credit Card reader is used by a lot of people. Plenty of people dont or can't use a smartphone. I always check plugshare about the next DCFC i plan on visiting, and plenty of people report using credit card readers. Its not exactly some gimmick. Not everyone wants to have to download 20 different apps either, i have apps that i had to download for one time charges like Red E, Shell Recharge, Circle K, Francis Energy, EVCS, etc.

Parking meters are the same and it’s a PITA. Different app for all kinds of different vendors. I hate it.

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

Just to be clear, the government isn’t “designing” anything; they are the payer (in the sense of providing a financial incentive) and they are setting the requirements. It is reasonable, imo, to require an alternative form of payment to an “app”; I do agree the intersection of EV drivers and non-smartphone-wielders is nil, but as @xyeahtony pointed out, in the wilderness - where we need charging infra - there is no cell phone coverage. Put differently, if you want to reach parity with gas stations, you have to be on par with gas stations (placement, support, payment etc.)

 

[daveo4EV]

Just to be clear, the government isn’t “designing” anything; they are the payer (in the sense of providing a financial incentive) and they are setting the requirements. It is reasonable, imo, to require an alternative form of payment to an “app”; I do agree the intersection of EV drivers and non-smartphone-wielders is nil, but as @xyeahtony pointed out, in the wilderness - where we need charging infra - there is no cell phone coverage. Put differently, if you want to reach parity with gas stations, you have to be on par with gas stations (placement, support, payment etc.)

if there's no internet there is no payment these days - especially if there is no human attendant - if you can make a credit card work you can make a cell phone work…plug&charge and app based payments can be made just as reliable as a credit card swipe- and no credit card swip these days works with out a live data connection…it can all be handled, but yeah I agree with you - it needs to always work!

I remember being at this site one day - not exactly terriblly remote:

46331 W Panoche Road, Firebaugh, California, 93622, US

cell coverage had dropped completely offline - and according to the local business so had internet - the local gas stations and fast food places could handle _NO_ orders since their Point-of-Sale systems all required online services which were out - but the EA stations worked, because they dispense free electrons if "offline"…

I filled my Taycan that day - but no one was getting any gasoline or hamburgers because of the data outage…

credit swipping is no more/less reliable than app based session management - and vice verse - if you understand the requirements you can make so that it will most of the time - anything else tends to fall into the same sort of infrequent but still awful edge cases where it just can't work…

if I can plan data for a charging stations payment processing - I can plan data for a localized cell tower - which by the way in my opinion is more useful (bringing coverage to area that lacks it) vs. just a data link to process $7.32 worth or electricity for an antiquated payment processing system…

given a choice I'd rather the govt. "require" a 5 bar signal around all EV charging stations vs. a credit card swiper which is likely to be broken/damaged - but since there is no cell coverage I can't call EA customer support to get the session started or even report the station is offline because there is no cell coverage.

if you're going to mandate anything - mandate wireless coverage near all EV charging locations - this would benefit EVERYONE - including the station owners that require a well maintained data connection for: payment processing, customer support, network monitoring, tow truck companies that need to dispatch trucks to pick up dead EV's, and maintance staff while visitng the station so they can eMail report status and generally update the main office with their findings, and something to do while charging…

NOTE: your Taycan and other EV's also really really don't like being offline - if there's no cell signal you can remotely monitor the car/charging session and start/stop it or adjust charging parameters or be notified that it's about to be finsiished charging…

basically a requirement to have a decent cell signal is vastly more useful (and more likely to actually work) than the requirement to have a credit card swiper and screen that is cracked/aged/yellowed such that you can't read it…

give me a cell phone signal as a requirement for govt. funding - I don't need a credit card swiper - but everyone and everything benefits from a public accessible data connection…

 

[WasserGKuehlt]

if there's no internet there is no payment these days - especially if there is no human attendant - if you can make a credit card work you can make a cell phone work…plug&charge and app based payments can be made just as reliable as a credit card swipe- and no credit card swip these days works with out a live data connection…it can all be handled, but yeah I agree with you - it needs to always work!

I remember being at this site one day - not exactly terriblly remote:

46331 W Panoche Road, Firebaugh, California, 93622, US

cell coverage had dropped completely offline - and according to the local business so had internet - the local gas stations and fast food places could handle _NO_ orders since their Point-of-Sale systems all required online services which were out - but the EA stations worked, because they dispense free electrons if "offline"…

I filled my Taycan that day - but no one was getting any gasoline or hamburgers because of the data outage…

credit swipping is no more/less reliable than app based session management - and vice verse - if you understand the requirements you can make so that it will most of the time - anything else tends to fall into the same sort of infrequent but still awful edge cases where it just can't work…

if I can plan data for a charging stations payment processing - I can plan data for a localized cell tower - which by the way in my opinion is more useful (bringing coverage to area that lacks it) vs. just a data link to process $7.32 worth or electricity for an antiquated payment processing system…

given a choice I'd rather the govt. "require" a 5 bar signal around all EV charging stations vs. a credit card swiper which is likely to be broken/damaged - but since there is no cell coverage I can't call EA customer support to get the session started or even report the station is offline because there is no cell coverage.

if you're going to mandate anything - mandate wireless coverage near all EV charging locations - this would benefit EVERYONE - including the station owners that require a well maintained data connection for: payment processing, customer support, network monitoring, tow truck companies that need to dispatch trucks to pick up dead EV's, and maintance staff while visitng the station so they can eMail report status and generally update the main office with their findings, and something to do while charging…

NOTE: your Taycan and other EV's also really really don't like being offline - if there's no cell signal you can remotely monitor the car/charging session and start/stop it or adjust charging parameters or be notified that it's about to be finsiished charging…

basically a requirement to have a decent cell signal is vastly more useful (and more likely to actually work) than the requirement to have a credit card swiper and screen that is cracked/aged/yellowed such that you can't read it…

give me a cell phone signal as a requirement for govt. funding - I don't need a credit card swiper - but everyone and everything benefits from a public accessible data connection…

There is a difference between “internet” and “cell phone coverage”. (And I know you know that.) The EA stations are connected to the internet, which is why and how they’re being monitored, EA members can pay with RFID, CC readers can work and so on.

But I’m not here to defend EA or the govt; I simply said it’s a reasonable request for a publicly-accessible network. Tesla, as a proprietary one, can very well impose whatever restrictions they want, and are also free to innovate - I suspect pairing the phone with the car, and the car with the network is more than sufficient to establish authenticity - no connectivity required.

Oh, and btw: at RR7 I had 5 bars of signal on 5G, and couldn’t open a simple web page. My phone was limited to sending messages and being a camera. I think we all agree the Tesla network is great, but sure as hell it’s not because of their phone apps, nor the absence of card readers. Let’s give it a fucking break already.

 

[ben1]

Reading the post above, I can also confirm that the problem is probably the charging network in the US, not the car.
I do not fast charge a lot and I have the small 79kwh battery, which charges a bit slower.
But I have honestly never had a fast charging session where I did not achieve a max charging speed above 200kw.
Ionity and FastNed are working well. And still growing.
I recently saw that the popular Ionity site near Metz, has a again doubled in capacity.
And FastNes is adding A LOT of extra sites in North-West-Europe. Things are moving fast in the good direction.

Something the Americans, also do not have, is the backup of the Tesla network. It gives me a lot of peace of mind that I know that I can always go to the nearest supercharger if something fails with the other CCS networks.

 

[andb]

So the country that started EV revolution does not have reliable fast charging network aside Tesla?

 

[Zcd1]

So the country that started EV revolution does not have reliable fast charging network aside Tesla?

Correct.

 

[whitex]

Just to be clear, the government isn’t “designing” anything; they are the payer (in the sense of providing a financial incentive) and they are setting the requirements. It is reasonable, imo, to require an alternative form of payment to an “app”; I do agree the intersection of EV drivers and non-smartphone-wielders is nil, but as @xyeahtony pointed out, in the wilderness - where we need charging infra - there is no cell phone coverage.

When the requirements specify implementation "must have screen, must have magnetic stripe reader, much have chip reader", it's "designing". Somehow Tesla owners are not complaining about not being able to charge at superchargers because they have no screens or card readers or cash payment processing. So that means you can have an effective charging network without it. Notice that connectivity or even cell phone coverage is not required to charge Teslas. A better requirement would have been "charger must provide energy even when connectivity is not available" - there are plenty of ways to implement payment systems which don't rely on real time connectivity to servers - the phone could talk WiFi or BT to the charger, provide tokens, or even simply log transactions to be processed later (remember the days when stores would take an imprint of your credit card and still managed to charge you even without internet?).

Put differently, if you want to reach parity with gas stations, you have to be on par with gas stations (placement, support, payment etc.)

Ah, I think we got to the bottom of this. You (and probably the government) are making a huge assumption that we want parity with gas stations. But why? Why hold back progress by requiring parity with an old solution? It would be like government requiring all cell phones have a mechanical rotary dial for parity with old landline phones.

On a personal note, I must tell you, after a decade of driving Teslas, the supercharger experience is superior to using gas stations. You don't need a phone, watch, credit card, or anything but the car which needs a charge. It doesn't get simpler than that. Yes you have to setup payment method online (via app or browser), but that is the norm for a lot of things nowadays, including government services or paying taxes. The key is to make the design reliable and easy to use. Tesla is really good at this. To this day my wife tells me about how much easier certain things were when she drove Teslas than her eTron, and she's right. Other manufactures just don't streamline the user experience like Tesla does. Wanna talk about Porsche OTA experience vs Tesla?

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