Elon's political antics may help WA EV consumers

[Mr.Smith]

Maybe he means auto dealer franchise laws like this one in Ohio, which 'protects consumers' by limiting the doc fee to $387 or 10% of the price:

When you buy a car here the dealer tells you the doc fee is a state requirement.......

Ill give give you an example. Rolling back an odometer is illegal and is supposed to be investigated by the states DMV.
A few years back, Tesla was Rolling back the odometer on their cars in Texas which as evident with DMV records.
Because Tesla is not a dealer, the complaints had to go to the Texas AG and they did nothing.

I'm not saying laws are always enforced, but there should at least have laws in place.

California limits doc fees to $85, then screws you on registration fees.

Sponsored

 

[Tooney]

I'm not saying laws are always enforced, but there should at least have laws in place.

California limits doc fees to $85, then screws you on registration fees.

No doc fee limit in @Jonathan S. state.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Ill give give you an example. Rolling back an odometer is illegal and is supposed to be investigated by the states DMV.
A years back, Tesla was Rolling back the odometer on their cars in Texas which as evident with DMV records.
Because Tesla is not a dealer, the complaints had to go to the Texas AG and they did nothing.

I'm not saying laws are always enforced, but there should at least have laws in place.

California limits doc fees to $85, then screws you on registration fees.

Link to that news story?
The closest I found was information about how rolling back a Tesla odometer is far more difficult than for other vehicles. (Although perhaps not so hard for Tesla...)

Plus this:
https://www.chron.com/business/bizf...aler-loses-federal-odometer-case-12555614.php

As for having to complain about such a practice to the state AG instead of the state DMV/RMV (which is yet another poster child for regulatory capture), that doesn't seem to be much of a disadvantage.
Plus one article I found about a rollback case in Massachusetts advised to contact the AG.

 

[Mr.Smith]

Link to that news story?
The closest I found was information about how rolling back a Tesla odometer is far more difficult than for other vehicles. (Although perhaps not so hard for Tesla...)

Plus this:
https://www.chron.com/business/bizf...aler-loses-federal-odometer-case-12555614.php

As for having to complain about such a practice to the state AG instead of the state DMV/RMV (which is yet another poster child for regulatory capture), that doesn't seem to be much of a disadvantage.
Plus one article I found about a rollback case in Massachusetts advised to contact the AG.

It never made the news. And its very simple to roll back an odometer if you have the right tools. Its even easier for Tesla to do it or Rivian, Lucid. Its a closed loop because they are the dealer and manufacture

Its the regulating body that enforces the rules in place for a dealer.
The highest consideration of dealers are here in Socal. I know of a few dealer principles that ended up in prison. Ive seen all the tricks.

 

[Jonathan S.]

It never made the news. And its very simple to roll back an odometer if you have the right tools. Its even easier for Tesla to do it or Rivian, Lucid. Its a closed loop because they are the dealer and manufacture

Its the regulating body that enforces the rules in place for a dealer.
The highest consideration of dealers are here in Socal. I know of a few dealer principles that ended up in prison. Ive seen all the tricks.

Okay, so just rumors and innuendos.

Setting that aside, criminal penalties for odometer rollback (which is a federal crime, as well as a state crime in all states) ultimately have to be criminally prosecuted to have any deterrent effect, so that's the state AG or U.S. attorney.
Trusting in a state DMV/RMV instead is hardly a consumer protection from the dealer franchise system, instead of DTC.

Plus your reference to jailed principles of independently owned car dealerships is hardly an endorsement of DTC bans.

 

[Mr.Smith]

Okay, so just rumors and innuendos.

Setting that aside, criminal penalties for odometer rollback (which is a federal crime, as well as a state crime in all states) ultimately have to be criminally prosecuted to have any deterrent effect, so that's the state AG or U.S. attorney.
Trusting in a state DMV/RMV instead is hardly a consumer protection from the dealer franchise system, instead of DTC.

Plus your reference to jailed principles of independently owned car dealerships is hardly an endorsement of DTC bans.

Not rumors. Looking at used Tesla in Texas, we found the DMV records for them with registered odometer readings with on average over 5000 miles on the clock.
The same VIN and cars Tesla itself was selling had a few hundred miles. Also inspecting the cars It was clear the cars had more than a few hundred miles on them by the wear and tear
This increases the value of the car which is why dealers and Tesla roll back miles.
If you know anything about Tesla, you wouldn't put this past them.

And it was not just mom and pop dealers, but larger franchise dealer principals too.

You like to argue instead of listening. I said dealers have a benefit, Direct to consumer is great, but there needs to be laws that protect the consumer. Having a law that's not enforced is better than not having any law.

 

[Flying ace]

Not rumors. Looking at used Tesla in Texas, we found the DMV records for them with registered odometer readings with on average over 5000 miles on the clock.
The same VIN and cars Tesla itself was selling had a few hundred miles. Also inspecting the cars It was clear the cars had more than a few hundred miles on them by the wear and tear
This increases the value of the car which is why dealers and Tesla roll back miles.
If you know anything about Tesla, you wouldn't put this past them.

And it was not just mom and pop dealers, but larger franchise dealer principals too.

You like to argue instead of listening. I said dealers have a benefit, Direct to consumer is great, but there needs to be laws that protect the consumer. Having a law that's not enforced is better than not having any law.

that's some pretty wild shit. I'd like to think it's a timing and registration difference that is causing this discrepancy. However, if Tesla is shown to intentionally doing this, this would be a conspiracy. Honestly, a subpoena for the records will reveal everything if state attorney generals actually care.

 

[Jonathan S.]

Not rumors. Looking at used Tesla in Texas, we found the DMV records for them with registered odometer readings with on average over 5000 miles on the clock.
The same VIN and cars Tesla itself was selling had a few hundred miles. Also inspecting the cars It was clear the cars had more than a few hundred miles on them by the wear and tear
This increases the value of the car which is why dealers and Tesla roll back miles.
If you know anything about Tesla, you wouldn't put this past them.

And it was not just mom and pop dealers, but larger franchise dealer principals too.

You like to argue instead of listening. I said dealers have a benefit, Direct to consumer is great, but there needs to be laws that protect the consumer. Having a law that's not enforced is better than not having any law.

"You like to argue instead of listening."
Quoted again for maximum irony.

As to the substance here, odometer rollback is a federal crime under 49 U.S. Code § 32703.
In addition, states have their own laws against odometer rollback.
I would be happy to listen to how the dealership franchise model somehow protects consumers more against odometer fraud than DTC.
Plus since you keep emphasizing all the dealership odometer rollback fraud, that is hardly a ringing endorsement for perceived perceptions of how the dealership model protects consumers.

 

[Mr.Smith]

that's some pretty wild shit. I'd like to think it's a timing and registration difference that is causing this discrepancy. However, if Tesla is shown to intentionally doing this, this would be a conspiracy. Honestly, a subpoena for the records will reveal everything if state attorney generals actually care.

Why is that wild? If you want to minimize your losses, its what you do. I can tell you it's the least of their egregious acts.
Car odometer was reported months before Tesla bought the car back to resell on the thier lot.

Selling cars is a dirty business. It doesn't matter if it's a small delaer or a high end one.
Because the barrier of entry is so low and the buyers are generally uniformed about a complex machine, it's the perfect recipe to cheat the consumer.
I've seen it in the biggest Rolls franchise dealer to the smallest mom and pop one.

 

[whitex]

There is actually a huge value add with dealers. Inventory management of vehicles and parts, financial liabilities shared with the manufacturer. No direct to consumer manufacturer has solved these problems, not even Tesla.
A hybrid approach might be a solution.

Have you seen the posts on how long the Taycan battery repairs take? Compare that to Tesla's few days. The longest I heard for Tesla of was 6 weeks because the owner's local service center was swamped so they couldn't get in, but most of the time they would actually prioritize any repair of bricked cars. Taycans take as long as 6 months (if you look harder you'll probably find longer examples). Most of the long wait is on parts from Porsche, so the "value added" inventory management system seems to be worse. EVSE cable replacement, Tesla had a similar recall, in 3 months they replaced everyone's NEMA 14-50 adapter - they just mailed one to every owner. How many years Porsche took to cycle through warning stickers, reprogramming default rate to 50%, eventually a pigtail with a temperature sensor. Even just the last phase, it took many months after announcing the recall until they managed to get cables to owners. AFAIK some owners are still waiting. Not to mention that the inventory management you claim superior is preventing second hand owners of Porsche EVSE's to receive their upgraded cables - I have one, dealer says recall is attached to the car, not the charger, so they cannot swap out cables on OEM Porsche PMCC I got not with the car. With Tesla, if somehow you got missed and didn't receive one in the mail, you just showed up at the service center, they swapped you on the spot - no VIN required, as you obviously had a defective Tesla product under recall. Again, I don't see how the dealer system is superior here.

Hybrid solution is a tough one because you now have manufacturer competing with dealerships, meaning there will always be accusations of preferential treatment, unfair competition, etc. Don't get me wrong, the direct system has its flaws, but some things can be both a flaw and advantage. For example, ability to negotiate the repair with the dealer, good thing if you are a good negotiator and have alternative ways to repair the car. If you are not a good negotiator, you will pay $72K for a $40K repair because the dealer figured out you can afford it. Direct model, all repair pricing is published and same at all service centers. Search for the 3.3mm battery gauge thread on here, how a dealer quoted 72K repair became a $40K after some hard negotiation from the insurance company. Side note, the most expensive battery repair for Model S I even heard of was $44K, and that was a while back (batteries more expensive per KWh), a full replacement of a battery after someone fired a gun into it (through the floor, accidental discharge, warranty did not cover it, though the owner did try).

 

[whitex]

It never made the news. And its very simple to roll back an odometer if you have the right tools. Its even easier for Tesla to do it or Rivian, Lucid. Its a closed loop because they are the dealer and manufacture

You really need to have some sources to back up your claim. If an official complaint was investigated by AG, there should be a paper trail. If there isn't one, perhaps you just fell for a clickbait.

As for easier to roll back. I cannot tell you about Rivian and Lucid, but over a decade of driving Teslas I've hacked those cars down to bits. Had root access to the onboard computers, etc. One thing I can tell you that while with root access (which is now much harder to get than in the early days), you could temporarily roll back the odometer, but as soon as the car powers up and connects to the Tesla mothership, this odometer discrepancy will be automatically corrected. There is no way (as there is never a need, so no official process exists) to roll back an odometer for any Tesla VIN. I guess the only way you could cheat is if you noted the car's odometer, kept the offline for months while driving it, then rolled it back to the original mileage before enabling online connectivity. However, without online connectivity, you lose so much, you cannot DC charge for example, you have no navigation, etc. An equivalent hack on old fashion, legacy cars was to disconnect the speedometer sensor on cars, drive with a GPS or your phone as the speedometer, then connect it back before every service and/or before selling it. I have read of people doing this even decades ago (especially on leases, people would do it towards the end to not exceed pre-paid mileage). A lot of other cars, especially non-connected, you can roll back an odometer just following the official odometer swap repair procedures. Not possible on Teslas as swapping the MCU that tracks the odometer will just be updated to actual VIN mileage on activation.

So bottom line, it's actually more complex to cheat odometer on 24/7 connected Teslas than most other cars.

 

[Art]

^ Or Europeans could be buying fewer Teslas b/c of inroads there by Chinese marques. Or they're just waiting for the new(-ish) Model Y.

What I have noted from LI-posts - there are many people especially from Germany who don't really appreciate kanzler Musk's involvement in local politics.

 

[Flying ace]

Why is that wild? If you want to minimize your losses, its what you do. I can tell you it's the least of their egregious acts.
Car odometer was reported months before Tesla bought the car back to resell on the thier lot.

Selling cars is a dirty business. It doesn't matter if it's a small delaer or a high end one.
Because the barrier of entry is so low and the buyers are generally uniformed about a complex machine, it's the perfect recipe to cheat the consumer.
I've seen it in the biggest Rolls franchise dealer to the smallest mom and pop one.

It's wild bc it implies there's a corporate sanctioned policy to modify odometer readings illegally, and not acts committed by single uncoordinated rouge employees for personal benefit.

As I implied, I'd like to give the company the benefit of the doubt, and if state attorney generals actually thinks there's corporate directed malfeasance, they can start with a subpoena. And when that happens, you'll see Telsa in house lawyers drop like files and make deals, bc they likely will be the first to go to jail. I'll leave it at that.

Corporate directed illegal activities will bring the entire enterprise down, I just can't believe there's enough (literally) criminals at all levels of Tesla (Board of Directors, executives, counsel, upper/mid management, and staff) that's willing to coordinate illegal activities for corporate profits. By doing so it turns them into a criminal organization. Internal communications directing such activities and consistent evidence will be flushed out with a subpoena and investigation. Until the AGs have belief it's happening to the extent they are investigating and pursuing legal actions, I don't believe this...

 

[Mr.Smith]

It's wild bc it implies there's a corporate sanctioned policy to modify odometer readings illegally, and not acts committed by single uncoordinated rouge employees for personal benefit.

As I implied, I'd like to give the company the benefit of the doubt, and if state attorney generals actually thinks there's corporate directed malfeasance, they can start with a subpoena. And when that happens, you'll see Telsa in house lawyers drop like files and make deals, bc they likely will be the first to go to jail. I'll leave it at that.

Corporate directed illegal activities will bring the entire enterprise down, I just can't believe there's enough (literally) criminals at all levels of Tesla (Board of Directors, executives, counsel, upper/mid management, and staff) that's willing to coordinate illegal activities for corporate profits. By doing so it turns them into a criminal organization. Internal communications directing such activities and consistent evidence will be flushed out with a subpoena and investigation. Until the AGs have belief it's happening to the extent they are investigating and pursuing legal actions, I don't believe this...

Tesla is a religion and a belief system so I'm going to stop at this post, but I'll leave you with a few tidbits of info.

I didn't read about the mileage discrepancy, I've seen it with my own eyes and people I know submitted proof to the Texas AG.
The "Mothership" turns back the odometer.

There are many whistleblowers that I know that have spoken out against Tesla and Musk that their lives have been destroyed. I know the FBI was deep into Tesla activities, focus on the Reno plant.

In terms of a BOD, Look up the lawsuit against the Tesla BOD and that will answer your question.
How many general councils and CFOs has Tesla been through? Look that up too.

USAID was investigating Starlink so Musk gutted it. He is going after every agency that was investigating Musk and his companies. From from the SEC, FBI, FCC, NTSB, FAA, on and on. All are getting gutted.

FOIA requests show that there was a Grand Jury Summons last year For Musk. It was imperative that Trump gets elected, by any means.

What Musk is doing in the US government is nothing compared to how he runs all of his companies.
You think he's running the government and spending all his time and money for free speech? Think again.

 

[kort]

Tesla is a religion and a belief system so I'm going to stop at this post, but I'll leave you with a few tidbits of info.

I didn't read about the mileage discrepancy, I've seen it with my own eyes and people I know submitted proof to the Texas AG.
The "Mothership" turns back the odometer.

There are many whistleblowers that I know that have spoken out against Tesla and Musk that their lives have been destroyed. I know the FBI was deep into Tesla activities, focus on the Reno plant.

In terms of a BOD, Look up the lawsuit against the Tesla BOD and that will answer your question.
How many general councils and CFOs has Tesla been through? Look that up too.

USAID was investigating Starlink so Musk gutted it. He is going after every agency that was investigating Musk and his companies. From from the SEC, FBI, FCC, NTSB, FAA, on and on. All are getting gutted.

FOIA requests show that there was a Grand Jury Summons last year For Musk. It was imperative that Trump gets elected, by any means.

What Musk is doing in the US government is nothing compared to how he runs all of his companies.
You think he's running the government and spending all his time and money for free speech? Think again.

maybe your allegations and views are accurate however taking apart the wasteful bureaucracies IMHO is a good thing unless you are a supporter of condoms for gazanians or gay comic books for peru.
no need to respond because I am not here for the political diatribes

Sponsored